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Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #1  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:00 PM
Black Diamond 110
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Default Upgrades to the 110 motor

Mike

My question is very open as I have not located a lot of information of modifications to the 110 motor to date. I am installing the HD Heavy Breather, Rinehart True Duals and Race Tuner on my FLHRSE4. I am looking at a winter project of porting/polishing heads and installing better cams. The 255 are weak IMHO.

My riding style is mostly one up. However on trips (4 or 5 times a year) I do carry quite a load for my lady and myself. She's a new rider on her Road King Custom. Most of my riding is in the 2600 - 3000 rpm range. Looking for good low end (butt dyno) torque with hp to keep her going. When I open her up to pass, I want to know I got the power I need to get it done.

Head work - use the 110 heads with ACR or replace with performance heads?
ACR - an problems surfacing with these? Unexpected failures? ECM related problems with them?
Cams - are there cams on the market specifically set up for the 110 motor and heads that will get the job done?

I'm not into dyno sheets. I'm into reliability and ride time. If it makes me smile, it's good enough. TIA

JW
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RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #2  
Old 09-20-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Study our dyno charts for "110 Latpaks" on this site very closely. We've recently posted some extensive test results on the 110. The tq of the 255's is going to be very hard to improve upon from 1500-3000 rpm. If you are willing to sacrifice some tq in this area, then some higher end hp is readily available with cams and head work. We have special pistons available for just such combo's. Head work alone will give nice overall increases with the stock 255's.
Mike
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RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:00 PM
Black Diamond 110
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Default RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Looking into this more I have been informed HD is using 253 cam as stock on 08 CVO's. Is this correct. How does this change what I need to do. I'm looking for good low end torque. Thanks
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RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Nope, they are using the 255's! The 253's were used in earlier CVO 103's. As mentioned earlier, the 255's are going to be hard to beat when looking at tq from 1500-3000 (low end). Easy to beat up high (3500+) but that is not what you and others have been asking for. It may come down to our definition of "low end" tq. My def is low end = 1500-3000, mid=2500-4500 and high 3500+. Note that there is some overlap on these and so we really want to be clear on what the owner defines as what they expect from the bike and the rpm range that expectation is to be realized. Not always as easy as it seems because we want our bikes to do it all, but realizing that compromises must be made and identifying what those may be. But once defined, the cam choices and expectations are easy and realistic=happy owner.
Mike
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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #5  
Old 10-28-2007, 09:00 PM
Black Diamond 110
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Good afternoon Mike,

Well I've been looking into this upgrade a bit more which of course leads to more questions. My scooter has a SE A/C, Race Tuner, and Rinehart TD. At this point I am shying away from the Heavy Breather I mentioned earlier. I am not seeing a benefit vs cost for this unit. What is your opinion of the Heavy Breather?

I know the Rineharts are not the best choice for low end torque. I do not like the looks of the 2 in 1's on a bagger. Should I consider the quiet baffles for these pipes? I have looked at your dyno sheets and see a slight increase in tq.

I am looking at the cams and head work. What is your opinion of the T man and his 590 cam for low to mid range rpm riding. I'm looking for street useable torque. Have you seen / used any of the GRM Perfomance heads or product? I am interested in their heads as they have shown a "fix" in the head gasket leak issue. I am looking for a package from a reliable company. I am not going to piece this together with parts that sound good. I want a proven package that reliable. You have indicated in several post you are looking into a new grind for a 110 cam to address these rpm area. Where are you at on this process?Have you put together a package for 110 upgrades yet?

Should I look to going with gear drive or stay with the new Harley chain drive for cams? Since I may address the cam support plate with an upgraded, this opens my options. Does the current cam support plate flex too much? Do you know of a cam support plate similar to the 2000 - 2006 HD support plate (ball bearings front / roller bearing rear) I can use with the existing oil pump? Is this a good idea? The current oil pump seems quite improved. Why did HD stop using bearings in the support plate? I am looking at long term reliability as I keep my bikes a long time, eg my first Harley 1984 FXRS still with me.

Would you recommend the 58 mm TB for my upgrade? Are there other TB on the market that work with the 08 fly by wire system?

I want to address an issue I have learned about with the current crank and runout. I would either weld and balance the crank using Darkhorse Crack or replace it with a Jim's SE crank which still must be balanced. Your recommendation? Since I'll have the bottom cracked open, I plan on installing Timken and Torrington bearings for further reliability. My intention is to make a strong reliable 110 that will last. I know I could look at a motor swap with a Jim's 120 but I would like to explore this option first.

Thanks Mike. Sorry if I got a little wordy but you are a great source for "real" information vs some things you pick up on the web. Stay safe. Keep the painted parts up.

Jeff
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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #6  
Old 10-30-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Thank you for the kind words.

Because of your motor size I would recommend the standard baffles. The quiets nay be just too restrictive.

The Heavy Breather is more of a cosmetic decision. We are still waiting on the Zippers 08 upgrade to the SE high flow and hope to see soon (similar to that used on the 51CV's). This would be the best option.

The 590 are an excellent choice for rpms ranging 2700+ and when used with 10.2+ compression. The 255's will still outpull them from 2000-2700. Suggest gearing changes with these cams.

No promise date on our test cams.

I've talked with Steve at GMR. They use the R&R heads and these have a very strong following. Not sure about the gasket "fix" as this gasket has been redesigned, do not see how the head itself would lead to a correction (unless they are counterboring or stepping the surface, just guessing). May be more of an assembly procedure.

To date our packages are a function of the defenition of "low/mid range" tq. For those seeking the biggest gains from 2-3k we recommend 255 cams, Baisley Prostreet porting, the SE pistons with a correction for 9.6 compression (when used with the Baisley heads), D&D Boarzilla w/quiet baffle and a good SERT tune. For those seeking best power from 2700-4700 (and willing to regear or downshift), cams similar to the TM 590, Knightprowler TW7H, SE 251 or 257, compression 10.2-10.7 (depending on cam choice) and the rest as above. Knowing that tq from 2-2.5 will be soft and possibly even less than stock with pipe and air cleaner.

I do not feel gear drive is needed in the hydraulic motors. The added cost, potential noise and some other possible issues (not yet confirmed) do not warrant them. The problem they were designed to correct has been essentially solved with the hdy tensioners and roller chains, at least in a motor combo similar to this discussion.

Cam plate flex has not beeen demonstrated to be an issue in motor builds of this nature. A billet plate would not do harm and may be a good upgrade for comforts sake, but adds cost. The SE billet bearing plate could be used with certain Andrews cams. Special cams are required for the inner case bearings and gear drive would be recommended as these are also the spring tensioner/hyvo chain design. Limits cam choices and adds a LOT of cost, again to solve issues that may no longer really exist. The parent metal design was most likely a cost reduction but has been used extensively for years in many other applications with great success, so no real arguements against it (except when used with gear drives). It could be argued that it will be more reliable as less parts to fail (bearings).

The 58mm t-body would be recommended to take best advantage the ported heads. Also recommend the larger injectors. No aftermarket stuff yet (as far as I know) but we are trying to fast track our two piece, interchangable venturi version (along with the cam design). Still unsure of possible throttle plate/tuning issues when doing so. Intend to install on a heavily modified Jims 131/08 bike as soon as all the parts arrive (it's a go and parts/bike have been ordered). It may be great or humbling, probably both!

We recommend sending the stock crankshaft to Hobben Brothers for this work. Good thing to do but also adds cost. Same with Timken conversion.

When we get into all of these "upgrades", the Jims 120/131 look like pretty good options. Especially when you consider a buyback option on your takeout motor (we offer this to those installing Jims motors here).

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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #7  
Old 11-19-2007, 09:00 PM
Black Diamond 110
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Hi Mike

Well I am still looking at this build. Talked with Dan Baisley today and got some good information. Looking at the Prostreet work being done to my heads.

My question is in regards to the head gasket leak problem I was referencing above. I just got 3673 miles on her and sure enough; She is leaking from the rear head gasket. Dang it. Wouldn't my 08 Screamin Eagle Road King have the redesigned gasket? Why was the gasket redesigned? What problem did Harley identify that needed this "redesign." Is this head gasket leak as prevelant as some internet sites claim? If so, I can tell you I am very disappointed in Harley for putting forth a motor with a known problem.

Don't get me wrong, I love this scooter and want to make it right. My dealership will take care of me, that I am certain of as they are a great place to do business.

You have me looking hard at remaining with the 255 cam. I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share it. Thanks Mike.
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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

If you stay with the 255 just watch compression ratio's and go with Dan's recommendations. Check out the 110 dyno charts on this site for some idea of the tq curve shape with a similar setup, in addition to a forum user post in this catagory.
I cannot comment on H-D's reasons for the head gasket redesign. We have seen some weeping and have had not returns with the new gaskets. Builds with the new gasket have not had issues here at Latus. Internet sites tend to see one failure as an epidemic. We try not to base the whole world on one example, it is not as prevelant as these sites would indicate, IMHO.
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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
  #9  
Old 11-19-2007, 09:00 PM
Black Diamond 110
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Thanks Mike,

The new gasket is not in the 08 110's?

How would the Baisley Prostreet ported SE 110 heads do with the T-man 590 cam / R&R 615? (R&R is looking at doing this grind in a chain drive) Would these cams work with the SE support cam plate?

I am going with the Timken conversion and Hobben reworked crank as I do not have the Jim's buyback option. (You don't pick up bikes for service in central Illinois by chance? just kidding ) I know I could sell the motor on Ebay but don't think I want the hassle.

Again, Thanks Mike

Jeff
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Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Upgrades to the 110 motor

Yes, the 08's will have the new gaskets.

The TM 590's will want 10.5-10.7 compression while the R&R's better with 10.0-10.2. The R&R's will give better low end tq numbers while the 590's slightly higher big end numbers.

Both will work fine with the new SE plate and BHP heads.
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