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96 to 103
  #1  
Old 01-22-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default 96 to 103

Hi Mike I got a 2007 Fxwg Harley with the new 96 cu motor and 6 speed transmission. I've done a Se high flow air box, put a set of D&D Fat Cat 2 into 1 pipes with the sert. I was looking at a 103 kit. The H-D dealer closest to me is 50 miles, he suggested doing a 103 kit with this for parts, he's suggesting to do forged pistons, he has raced harleys for 40 yrs. He said the compression ratio would be 10:5.1 and the heads would have compression releases. I screwed up and bought a extended warranty on the bike. Don't know if its any good or not. The dealer said they would stand behind the build along with the warranty at this dealership only because of the kind of build they are doing.
all prices reflect a 10% discount on parts and pricing for cylinder bores are pending on napa.

10014-$1
17045-99c-$57.60
17052-99b-$69.66
17071-03b-$1000.00
17369-06-$2.80
17997-99a-$126.00
22483-04-$252.00
25473-06-$270.00
32076-06-$76.46
37951-98-$22.46
60547-06-$27.36
63798-99a-$12.56
99816-2050/00qt-$14.85
99851-05-$6.95
bore cylinders-$90.00
ds-172104-$35.95
motor labor-$845.00
tune time-$195.00

item total-$2065.65
labor total-$1040.00
shop supplies-$12.00
tax total-$171.43
total amount-$3289.08

I went to a indy shop and here is what he suggested.
David, In my low compression kit, 9:8 to 1 , with a stock throttle body,
your d&d exhaust, your stg 1 hi-flo (installing new filter), my cam and
cylinder package with heads. Your race tuner, tuned. 3200.00 inc. tax and
labor. 12 mos, 12K warranty. Approx. 104 hp 112+ tq. should be close
w d&d pipe.
Regards,

Danny Lewis
Danny's Cycle Shop
Montgomery,Texas
hdtwincam@earthlink.net
936-447-4648 Shop
936-588-3620 Fax
www.dannyscycleshop.com

Which build would you go with of do something different ?
Would you worry about the warranty on the bike ? I've never had a new bike and never had to worry about it.
What kind of suggestions would you give for a build. Also what do you think about Zippers thundermax Generation II with auto tune against Sert ?

What ever happened to folks sending heads off to be ported and doing a build like in the 70's at the indy shops ?
Thanks for any help you could give.
Oh yea I ride a lot by myself. I would like the cam to be all way threw the rpm range starting like at 1800rpm. and my wife rides 2 up with me a lot too.

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Re: 96 to 103
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: 96 to 103

What would you do
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Re: 96 to 103
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: 96 to 103

Quote:
cardboard - 2007-01-23 12:25 PM

What would you do
Or would you look at doing the 110cu ,motor from the 96uc, I was told when you bore the 96cu cases it makes them too thin and they tend to leak oil. The price difference ain't that much I don't believe.
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RE: 96 to 103
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 96 to 103

I would go with the dealer combo, it's an excellent package. The 103+ heads are fairly good and the 257 cams will need the 10.5 compression to build cylinder pressure, making good torque throughout. The 9.8 compression may not be enough to support the cam and will give less torque. The forged pistons are an excellent design and do work with the parabolic rods. You can send your heads off for porting and we do this routinely. To get a head much better than the 103+ will cost aorund $1300.00 from most of the best, well known porting shops such as Baisley, T-Man, Zippers, etc. (there are less expensive but you get what you pay for here). The only addition I might recommend would be the 50mm SE throttlebody. The heads are port sized already for the 1.730 O.D. of the manifold and you'll have enough motor size to support this body without loss of torque. All of this will be complemented by your D&D exhaust and if you want a little more you can opt for the performance baffle available for the Fatcat. The SERT will allow for proper mapping.

Warranty questions must be possed to you local dealer and can differ based on area and dealer/shop policies.

Have not used the Thundermax systems since SERT has been working well for us (hard to be experts with all systems so we choose to be with SERT and PowerCommanders only). We'll have our throttle body ready for release soon for 07 motors requiring more than the SE 50. I would not replace the SERT with the Thundermax once already invested in.
Thanks, Mike
With the above build expect 110-115hp/tq (07's make less than 06E due to 6speed and overdriven primary), STD 5th gear numbers on a 250i dyno (SAE, 4thgr will show lower numbers, 250 dynos show more vs 250i's).
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RE: 96 to 103
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 96 to 103

Really appreciate the help on the advise mike. Thanks !! This makes me feel a little better on the build. I'm kinda sweating bullets, not wanting to make a mistake and having to live with it. I don't want to make a big mistake on the new bike, The new bikes are different from the older ones. I've never had a computer on a Harley.
I think I might go with the SE255 cams instead they look like they give a better range of coming in on mid to top. the se 257 look like they ain't gonna come in but mainly on top end making it a sling shot. I would like to have the cams come in a little earlier. I would like a 1800-5500 rpm Dealer Cam. They are twisting my arm to get away from the chains and go with gear drive.
I was told with the pistons it was suppost to be a 10.5:1 compression ratio.
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RE: 96 to 103
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Old 01-24-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 96 to 103

I'm VERY worried about the 255's with 10.5 compression. When using the Cometic .030 head gaskets (ds172104), your compression could be as high as 10.8 making the problem even worse. With 10.5 compression the corrected compression will be 10.2 and with 10.8 it will be 10.5. Typically, anything above 9.5 corrected (based on intake closing) will raise detonation concerns. With your proposed combo, detonate will be severe, forcing much of the performance invested in the build to be tuned out to address this issue. Better to go with the 251's (corrected 9.4 with 10.5 static or 9.7 with 10.8, still requiring tuning to be spot on). Even with the 251's, better to use the SE 16101-01 .045 head gasket for 10.5 compression. If the heads actually cc for a lager than advertised volume (as they often do), you can use the Cometic .030 to correct back to the 10.5 static compression. Of course higher altitudes (Denver for example) can stand higher pressures and some builders compensate for this on bikes known to be used only in those areas.

The exhaust selection will have a larger impact on the shape of the torque curve and where it comes in. See this months American Iron Magazine, page 186 for an example of how great this effect can be regardless of the cam choice.

The gear drives in an 07 are trying to solve a problem that does not exist. With the change to roller chains and hydraulic tensioners the wear issues have been corrected. We have and do install them, when asked and they have a valid argument for 06E models. We also are somewhat concerned about the ability of the gear set to maintain lash in the new cam plate using plain "parent metal" bearings (this was why S&S uses the ball bearing in the rear cam vs. the "updated" roller bearing, the roller has too much float). This may end up being an unfounded concern but we are going to give it some time before we can comfortably recommend the gear drives in 07's. They add substaintial cost, increased engine noise and again, in 07's the problem they address has been corrected. IMHO!
Thanks, Mike
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RE: 96 to 103
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Old 01-24-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 96 to 103

So with the 103 + Screaming eagle heads the Se 257 are o.k. but they come in way of top on RPM, but the 255 are not, kinda lost there. where on the rpm's do the se 251 come in and go out and why are they o.k. Thanks mike !
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RE: 96 to 103
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 96 to 103

If you are looking for low to mid rpm's the 251's will give a little more than the 257's due to the shorter timing. The 251's wtill have enough timing to reduce cylinder pressure below the detonation threshold yet still maintain good overall torque vs. the 255's. The 255's are simply going too far in the opposit direction of say the 264's, which would be too much cam. The 257's would be a good overall choice with best performance in the mid range for your combo. Of course all this is dependant on the exhaust choice. You'll want an exhaust that complements the cam. I.E. a low restriction exhaust will help top end power and would be a good choice for a motor with high duration cam timing, but would be a poor choice for a motor with cams of less duration. We are in a sense trying to do one thing with the exhaust that countradicts what we are trying to do with the cam choice. My cam recommendations are very much based on the exhaust choice (among other things). Another way to look at it is that the exhaust choice also indictates what type of performance we are expecting of the bike and then I can make a cam choice based on that, I.E low end torque or high end power.
I got off on a tangent with the exh. The cam choice is also a big function of the compression ratio and resulting cylinder pressures. In your scenario build, the 255's would make way too much prressure and cause detonation issues. Now if you were running 8.5 compression these cams would do OK, with the resulting loss in performance. But why sacrifice the compression and its bennefits to satisfy a cam choice. Better to match the cam to the compression and enjoy the increased performance of both.
My apologies for the confusion, but it is a critical choice.
Thanks, Mike
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