120 hp High Output 95?

[palsers]

Mike, You da man when it comes to getting the scoop. I have built several 95s and the latest was a 114 rev. My son just bought a stock twin cam 03 night train. He says, Dad my this thing haul grass. Tman has a high output and also Cycle Rama has one that they flat out say it will run the 120 numbers and have the dyno numbers to prove it but at a ungodly price. Give us the skinny on the 120 HP 95 at 6500rpm. Let me take a guess. 2.00 and higher values in a serious high flow head. 10;5 and up compression, 650 TMAN cams or higher, roller rockers, 46MM Makuni and finnaly a 2 into 1 exhaust. Am I close. Thanks for the help. Barry Colo. :)

[Sledman]

My 98" build was tuned by Mike to 125.70 H.P., with less cam than that..........

[palsers]

Well let hear what the build sheet is on this 98 and if mike dynoed it the dyno sheet should in the archives and you wouldn't need that much cam because it is not a 95 it is a 98.

[sean fxd]

Dyno wars....120hp on what dyno? what gear 5th or 4th what correction factor std or sae.

The 125.7 hp on the 98" I would guess is 5th gear std dyno run. That is 1.28 hp/cu in...very stout. A 120hp 95" needs 1.26 hp/cu in..pretty close.

4th gear sae will be around 6-8hp less than 5th gear std on strong 95" from what I have seen...Mike will know for sure.

I believe a 98" will need at least as big a cam as a 95" to make hp at 6500rpm.

Am I close Mike???

Sean

[Mike]

We did a couple of builds that were just crazy over the top and would not normally recommend to our customers but here goes. 95ci, 12 to 1 compression, Baisley Prostreet heads, 51CV carb, Bassanni Prostreet duals, SE 264 cams. 120+hp while still carrying 110tq (BIG tq dip around 2.7k). Should be posted under 95 builds. All of our dyno numbers are STD/5th gear (we have an explaination of our methodology in the dyno library). The real trick is to get enough compression in the motor to support these big cams. If this can be done you will see good hp numbers along with the traditional low end tq losses. 6-8hp difference would be realistic with 4th gr/SAE.
Mike

[Sledman]

Mike never did get the dyno sheet listed on here, I'm not sure why, ask him. I would be glad to email you a copy.

10.8:1 compression, 98" Revolution cylinders, CP forged flat top pistons, milled to fit up into the combustion chamber of the head, R&R stage V cast heads, R&R 615/585 cams, S&S gear drive, Feuling oil pump, H.P. Inc. 55 mm Throttle body & intake, D&D Fatcat, Zippers high flow air filter, 3:37 primary drive gears, tuned with a SERT by Mike in late March of this year. I trailered it from the Boise Idaho area over there for his expertise. And he did not disappoint me!

The engine revs VERY fast. 125.70 H.P., 114.06 TQ, it hits 100 fts of TQ at around 2700-2800 rpm, goes up, and is nearly straight all the way to the rev limiter. It may drop 4 lbs of torque to the end is all. It's fun to ride, but I don't really spank it hard very often. No need really, it's got enough torque to get you moving quick without revving it out. It is also VERY resonsive. First time riders on this bike get surprised by how instantaneous the response is.....you have to be carefull moving your thumb to the right turn indicator button, a little bit of throttle goes a long way, and right now.

I'm very pleased with the outcome. I'm sure ANY build that Mike and/or his guys perform for you will exceed your expectations. There shop was very proffesional, you could tell they were serious and are on top of the game.

[Sledman]

3:37 primary gears alter the H.P. difference when tuned in 5th gear as apposed to the later models with 3:15 primary gears tuned in 5th gear. Mike can elaborate if he wants to.....

[Mike]

I'm SOOO far behind on dyno chart listings!! I'll bring up yours and get it posted in our library.

You can get slightly higher numbers with the 3.37's due to the greater leverage advantage of the smaller front sprocket, giving quicker spin-up on the dyno drum,=+hp.
Mike

[palsers]

So Mike what you are saying is you have to run a ungodly amount of compression to make 120hp on a 95 build. The word streetable is always being thrown around.

Two things.

1. is how much head cfm do you have to have to run the big numbers on a 95 hipo build.

2.when does cc and over all compression come to a point that you cannot run gas at the pump. I ran 195 cc and had to retard the timeing a little and
then watch not running it hard in the heat. But I was at 5500 ft. Denver colo and you can run more compression the higher you live.

Barry,

[Mike]

True, you can run more compression at higher altitudes. Not so much the cc's or mechanical cormpression but the corrected and cranking compression is where the street vs race happens. Corrected pressures of more than 9.8 in our experiance has required race fuels and cranking pressures much above 220 the same. Another way to look at it from a practical standpoint is motors we've built with these or higher pressures have produced a lot of detonation requiring race fuel, additives and/or detuning to control. Some will say you can get away with these pressures, when properly tuned, on pump gas but that has not been our experiance.

I may be wrong, but I believe the Hippo build used SE performance heads and I do not know if these were then additionally ported. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong. These heads, as cast, will not give high enough flow numbers to support 120hp unless forced with a really big motor. They typically give 92-105 hp, big range due to casting differences.
Mike

[palsers]

Mike, let me try to put it in the world that most of us normal guys live. We want the most horse power and torque we can get and still be able to pull in to a gas station and put gas in it.

1. How much cfm can a 95 build take in a head. Lets say 300 cfm at inches. what is the threshold that you begin to have to much head

2. I know you are going to say it all depends on the compression and cam, so lets say I run a Wood tw9f which is a bid cam but I have a light bike in a nigh train, I would run a 6 to a 8 in a heavier bike

3. lets take 200 Ibs of cranking pressure ( CAN YOU DRIVE IT THAT WAY IN THE HEAT WITHOUT DETONATION PROBLEMS)

3. I will put a two into one supertrapp so I can tune it and the ignition of your choice

4. Carb of your choice

5. Give me highest flowing heads I can run with out losing the velocity because I need air to spin that drum to 120 HP

Now can you tell me what the numbers on this bike will get close to and how it will act.

I think now I will have the questions that a lot of us would like to know .

:o Barry, Colo.

[Divertim]

Sledman - 2007-10-03 12:50 AM

Mike never did get the dyno sheet listed on here, I'm not sure why, ask him. I would be glad to email you a copy.

10.8:1 compression, 98" Revolution cylinders, CP forged flat top pistons, milled to fit up into the combustion chamber of the head, R&R stage V cast heads, R&R 615/585 cams, S&S gear drive, Feuling oil pump, H.P. Inc. 55 mm Throttle body & intake, D&D Fatcat, Zippers high flow air filter, 3:37 primary drive gears, tuned with a SERT by Mike in late March of this year. I trailered it from the Boise Idaho area over there for his expertise. And he did not disappoint me!

The engine revs VERY fast. 125.70 H.P., 114.06 TQ, it hits 100 fts of TQ at around 2700-2800 rpm, goes up, and is nearly straight all the way to the rev limiter. It may drop 4 lbs of torque to the end is all. It's fun to ride, but I don't really spank it hard very often. No need really, it's got enough torque to get you moving quick without revving it out. It is also VERY resonsive. First time riders on this bike get surprised by how instantaneous the response is.....you have to be carefull moving your thumb to the right turn indicator button, a little bit of throttle goes a long way, and right now.

I'm very pleased with the outcome. I'm sure ANY build that Mike and/or his guys perform for you will exceed your expectations. There shop was very proffesional, you could tell they were serious and are on top of the game.

This sounds like the same build I am doing right now. I can't wait to finish it

[Mike]

1. The cfm is just a function of the HP potential your trying to achieve. Typically about 240cfm at 22inches will give you about 110-115hp potential (we've seen more but not typical). Normally the exhaust would be 70-80% of this. Every head porter has their own preference and philosophy as far as cfm values and in/ex ratio's. They will also differ widely on the flow curves, low lift flow, valve sizes, port volumes and other values incorporated into their porting. I'm not a professional head porting specialist and 'am somewhat outside my expertise, the details of these things I leave and trust to the true porting magicians.
2. The 9 would be a good choice, it'll require close to 11 to 1 compression and will run 91 octane just fine at that.
3. We routinely run 210 with no problems (higher, but tune is critical and customers that have no problem returning for "adjustments" if needed).
4. We like the Dyna TC88 or Daytona Twin Tec ignitions.
5. Carb depends on use. My favourite is the Mikuni HSR 45 or 48 for really big numbers. Another option is the SE 44CV, a little more user friendly as far as altitude and invironment changes but lazier on throttle response. The Wood Auto carbs are also good choices but more expensive.
6. Baisley's Superstock porting may not guaruntee those numbers so we would recommend their Pro-
Street porting. The Pro-Street heads flow very well at low lifts (indicating good velocity) without sacrificing high end flow. They are among the best in the world at this.

Depending on exhaust and gearing the bike should be very tractable. Should make 120-125hp and 110-115tq through a five speed (5th gr STD). Raising gear ratios will help the bike accelerate quicker. The most power will be realized from 3.2k and up to 5.8/6.2 with a dip around 2.5/2.7k (the pipe will be the biggest influence on this). It will be a little "edgy" around the tq dip rpm due to all the same reasons for the dip (cam overlap, duration, exhaust scavenging, etc.), the same things that allow for the higher end hp numbers. Overall, no real problems just a slightly different nature as compared to stock, as is the nature of any such performance build.

Mike

[palsers]

Mike,

First of all Mike thanks for responding with something that is worthy to be read over and over for all the guys that want to run on the TOP END of the 95" and 96S Twin Cams. Someone should put this in a magazine.
The only thing this article needs is your expertise on exhaust.

I have run a lot of pipes but we all know the 2 into 1 is for the big numbers and that is what this thread is all about. I have heard a lot of good things about the supertrapp so I recently put one on my sons stock (but not for long) TC88 . I am impressed with how quiet this pipe is and how well it performs. Two, This is one of the few pipes that you can tune to the setup you have in the engine with adding or taking away disks. Mike have you worked with this pipe very much. The exhaust question is my last for now. Thanks for your expertise on the HIGH OUTPUT 95" BUILD. I hope it has helped others as much as it has for me. Barry, Colo,

[Mike]

Thank you for the kind words. We just tuned a bike from Canada with one of R&R's 107 kits equipped with the Supermeg (I'll post the results today on this site). Motorsize and cams will influence the disc counts but on this bike 24 was the magic number for best all around numbers. Less than this did pick up low end tq slightly but when finally tuned the 24 counts low point matched the 19 count. Less than 19 started to develope the predictable and charactoristic "M" shaped tq curve with the dip around 4k. We could not try more than 26 due to bolt length but suspect more would not have made a hp difference while dipping low end tq. Just to note, the disc count tests were each tuned to optimize fuel at WOT to be sure the comparisons were legitimate. The remaining part throttle tune was done after the best disc count was decided on (with the owners input). I suspect that smaller motors will work best with correspondingly smaller disc counts. These results tend to aggree with previouse tests except the disc count was higher, likely due to motor size (typically 12-18 with 80/88ci).
Mike