maps for a 2-1 header

[scootertrash]

Well I finally got my new scooter and I like it just fine. I had the dealer install the street legal 103 stage ll kit with the 255 cams ,the se ac and the se mufflers. I've already bought htcc cnc heads, 258 cams, 50mm throttle body and a 2-1 rbracing header and a sert. I'm not going to do anything to the motor till next fall when it get cold but I do want to put on the header now.
my questions. I'm looking for a map for the motor as it is but with the header. I don't see anything with a 2-1 header other than #18 but that has 103+ heads and a 257 cam. Would that work till I can get it to a dyno? I ask the wrench that put the kit on my motor which ecm flash I had and he said the stage ll. Would that be the same as the #88 download? Which injectors does the stock throttle body have? I see maps for 8 degree and 25 degree. I thought that the stock injectors were 8 degrees. Is that true for the 2007 bikes also or did they switch to 25 degree injectors? Does Harley have a web site with more factory maps that can be downloaded to use with the sert? I know at one time you were selling maps. Are you still doing this and do you have a map for this setup or at least one that would be a good base map? I ask you sometime back if you knew of a good dyno around the Wichita,Ks area and you said that you didn't have any personal knowledge of any. Has that status changed? I'm still looking. I guess there was a good tech at one shop but they moved him up the company ladder and the new guy is still learning. I know everyone has to start somewhere but I don't want to pay 50-75 dollars a hour to have it dynoed and then have to drive 300 miles to have it redone if it isn't right. I'm currently trying to check out a shop over in Missouri that is suppose to be pretty performance minded. I'm hoping. Thanks in advance for your advice. Your always such a big help. I hope to get out that way this summer and when I do I look forward to thanking you in person and shaking your hand.

[scootertrash]

Mike, I forgot. The sert that I have is part# 32107-01f. Is that the correct or the latest version? Thanks

[Mike]

The SERT is up to G with H on the way. Most revision are for new model year designations so older versions will still be fine when used on similar model years. If you've got the earlier version you can purchase the CD only to get the later cals.

Map 88 would be my choice to get to the dyno due to the 255 cams. SERT cals are not the same as those on Digital Tech.

All 07's use the 25 degree injectors. Also true of late 06's. The SE throttlebody uses a different injector altogether.
H-D does not offer maps through the public web site. We still sell maps but are being cautious with the O2 equiped models as we've had some issues. We believe we understand the problems but wish to verify. As part of that verification we can sell a map but with the caution that we cannot garuantee it.
Mike

[scootertrash]

Thanks Mike. I wasn't looking for a guarantee. I was looking for a map to use as a base for the dyno tech to build on. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by guarantee. I assumed that the maps you would sell were ones that you had made setting up bikes on your dyno and if you had one for a motor like mine that it would be a good starting point to build from.
I talked to the shop over in Missouri and they said they could build a new map and to expect about 6 hours of dyno time. Wouldn't having a map from you as a starting point be a good thing and would it be close enough for me to download into the ecm and use to get to the dyno with? Its about a 250 mile ride. If either of these is not right would the 88 map be good enough for that distance? If I understand correctly after I download a map into my ecm, I can not go back to the current factory map and would have to have a dealer reflash the ecm to go back to where I am currently? Sorry for so many questions but this is my first experience with computerized engine management.
If I can buy a map from you, can I call your shop and order it over the phone?Thanks for the help again.

[scootertrash]

One other thing I just thought to ask. On the sert, is the only difference between the f, g and h versions that there are more maps on the g and h cd's. I think you said I could just buy the cd from the dealer. Is that correct? thanks

[Mike]

Some people expect a new map to do great things when in reality it may not. We do feel that starting with one of ours makes the dyno process easier. The $50.00 investment can often save more than that in dyno time.
The SERT does not have O.E. maps but these can be reloaded via DT at a dealer. Stock cals are not charged for (except CVO/SE bikes) but the technician time would be chargable. Sorry, we do not have a map for your combo and the map discussed earlier may be just as close as anything we have, so I would suggest going with that to get to the dyno. Check back with ypour new combo when installed, we may have something at that time.

Mike

[Mike]

The later CD's contain maps for new model releases and the VIN recognition that goes with them. The CD's are available seperately but typically must be ordered.
Mike

[scootertrash]

Well Mike I put the header on and first I ran it with the stage II map and read the plugs under different conditions, ie , light throttle,light load, exc. The plugs looked pretty good under all conditions but the motor seemed run a little hotter. I downloaded the #88 map and repeated the runs ,reading the plugs. The rear cyl looks lean while the front looks pretty good but the motor is defiantly hotter. The heat from the rear pipe is bad enough that I can't set on the seat when I stopped. I bought a laptop so I could use the data mode and monitor the engine while it's running. Because it seemed so hot I went to the air-fuel table where every segment from 750 to 4500 rpm and 27 to 85 map were set at 14.6 and changed them all to 14.2 and downloaded this map. I repeated the test with the brain hooked up to the ecm. The only thing I see on the resulting map is a 2 degree knock sensor retard up full throttle at 5000 rpm which I think I can fix by enrichening at that point. The plug on the rear jug still looks lean and the engine temp is almost 300 degrees after riding at 70 mph for 4 to 5 miles. After all that my question is, isn't that too hot? I'm just trying to get a map going to get me to the dyno shop but that almost 300 miles away and I'm afraid of burning the thing up. Also the rear pipe is hot enough I couldn't ride it that far unless I ride side saddle. I was thinking about dropping the a-f ratio to 13.6 or so and see if that cools it off. I don't have a heat shield on the pipe yet as I wanted to build my own out of aluminum. The pipe is almost a copy of the one I've had on my shovel for years and it doesn't get that hot. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm about ready to put it back like it was till summer is over instead of wasting all this nice weather. Thanks for you help

[Mike]

You may wish to try map #69 since your bike now has an exh at least more similar to a shorty dual than the original touring "y" pipe system. Also, use advanced mode and then change the rear cylinder independantly via the VE table for that cylinder. Know that anything lower than 14.6 in the AFR table turns the O2 sensors off. You may wish to restore the AFR table to "reference" and use the "closed loop bias" table. Set all the values in the bias table to max. (798) causing closed loop to target 14.1 (14.6 is a switching value and does not reflect the AFR target). This should get you to your tuner without worries.
Mike

[scootertrash]

I must have missed that about the 14.6 turning off the 02 sensors. Am I right about the 280 to 300 being way too hot ? I looked at the test examples and I think the hottest I saw was around 235. I'm a little slow on this stuff so I'll have to digest what you said a little and then I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the help.

[Mike]

280-300 head temp is not "way" too hot, but 250-280 is the comfort zone. 350 would be cool down time.
Mike

[scootertrash]

I loaded map 69 in today without changing the closed loop bias tables and the engine temp dropped about 30 degrees. I'm getting some knock sencer retarding at wot and I'm editing the VE tables to try to eliminate or at least help with this problem. It seems to be working but I'm going slow changeing about 2 units if the retard is 1 or less and 5 units if the retard is greater than 1. When I quit seeing positive changes then I'd assume that I should retard the timeing in the cells that I'm still getting the knock retard in. Am I on the right path or should I be using the accel enrichment table to address this? I thought I'd hate messing with this but it's really interesting. THanks for you help. Hopefully I'm learning a little about efi.

[Mike]

Generally on the right track. The accel enrichment table will not do much as far as Knock retard. Changing the bias table, adding fuel in the VE tables and reducing timing will be the best avenues. Use units of two for predicable results. H-D will tell you that knock retard of 5 degrees or less is nothing to worry about. Values of 5 or less can often be "false" caused by transients or higher than stock compression. Strongly recommend changing the bias table.
Mike

[scootertrash]

Sorry Mike, sometimes I'm a little slow. I saw that you recommended changing the bias table values to 798 across the board and I assumed that was just to get to the dyno which is what I ask you to help me with and I will when I get ready to go to the dyno if I need to . I decided to try to get it closer myself so I started on the VE tables targeting the cells where the knock was occuring. In the bias table if I'm trying to tune out the knock would I just edit the cells where the knock is occuring as i did in the VE tables. When I maintain a steady speed as in where the 02 sencers would be working the rich-lean feedback balances back and forth between red1 and green 0. I looked at the test data file map labeled as a 2006 with a 02 senser and it was doing the same so I assumed that was acceptable.Is that a good assumpstion? I know I'm asking a whole lot of questions but I know of no other source of information, at least one that is willing to share it with the general public. Does anyone have a book that would go deeper into the workings of the tuner or is all the information that I need in the cd manual and I'm just not seeing it? I've got to the point that making my scooter run better is only part of the drive, I'm driven to try to understand how the tuner software uses the different files and how they relate to each other.THanks again.

[Mike]

Go with 798 in all cells of the bias table and leave it there. This will cause the O2's to target 14.1 in the active zones.

Sorry no instructions other than the CD with SERT unless someone has something on-line. Be carefull of on-line suggestions as I've seen much incorrect info there.
Mike