Finally had bike dynoed, need advice

[dnewman]

I had my 05 Ultra (SE Stage2 95" kit, stock heads, big sucker, w/V&H true duals) dynoed this week. I asked the tech/owner to do an advanced map, he said no probe lm. (both cylinders tuned separately) I was curious what the map looked like so I got the laptop out and took a look. I noticed that it was not an advanced map, it only showed fuel table 1. I also noticed that the map had all 20's in the cells from 40%-100% throttle and 4000-6000 rpms. This is about 25% of the map being the same. I have never seen this before on any PC map, so it made me suspicious A/F looked ok on the dyno run sheet. I called the dyno guy and asked about it not being an advanced map. He said he did an advanced map but must have forgotten to put it back in the PC and to come down and he would install it. So, when I got to the shop I questioned him about the map having the same values in 25% of the upper range. He said that it was right (according to his dyno) and got defensive about it. I made him defensive because I told him that I have never seen this before and I asked other dyno experts about it. (Jamie @ Fuel Motto) He said he would check it when he installed the advanced map to make sure it was right. The bike was not running right when I got it back. When I got home I looked at the map and he did have an advance map in but only 3 sells are different between tables1&2. The differences were in the 100% throttle and 2500,3250,3500 rpm's. Also, I did get a printout on the other cylinder and the AF was not right in some of the run. Again, I have never seen another PC map that had so many cells with the same numbers and the fuel tables 1&2 are almost exactly the same.



My question is... Does this sound right to you? Is it possible to have 25% of the cells in the upper ranges with the same values (on a PC) and both fuel tables with virtually the same values? Thanks for all of your help Mike!!!!

[Mike]

With a true dual exh. the sampled cells would normally be significantly different almost everywhere. The timing tables will look similar and often are the same. Some tuners like to fill the blank cells (those that are not sampled for instance, 10%throttle @ 4500rpm) with a constant value to act like an accelrator pump for throttle lead in. We used to do this with Hybusa's and ZX12's to solve glitchy throttle response (learned it from Yoshimura). The dyno charts AFR line ONLY reflects 100% throttle as this is where the throttle is when doing an acceleration run, even at 1500rpm or wherever the sample start point is. Note that AFR below 2k may be a little wavy due to the sudden opening of the throttle, less with near stock bikes, more as the camming and exh get aggressive. You could go to dynojets web site, download several similar maps and compare. Dynojet used to random check their certify'd tuning centers for accuracy but I do not know if they still do (kind of a secret shopper thing) but would not tell you unless a problem was found (we may have been checked but wouldn't know it). It may be worth a call to them.
Mike

[dnewman]

After arguing with this guy for some time he offered to have another guy dyno my bike today. There are only a couple of guys here in Vegas that dyno Harleys with a Power Commander. The guy that dynoed my bike is a Dynojet and Race Tuner trainer according to him and his card. He told me that he does not dyno bikes for the general public. He only works with dealers and their personal. Anyway, I took a look at his advanced map and it looks completely different from the one that the other guy did. I am convinced that the other guy did not know what he was doing. At least he did the right thing and paid other guy to tune my bike.

[dnewman]

dnewman - 2007-03-26 4:26 PM

After arguing with this guy for some time he offered to have another guy dyno my bike today. There are only a couple of guys here in Vegas that dyno Harleys with a Power Commander. The guy that dynoed my bike is a Dynojet and Race Tuner trainer according to him and his card. He told me that he does not dyno bikes for the general public. He only works with dealers and their personal. Anyway, I took a look at his advanced map and it looks completely different from the one that the other guy did. I am convinced that the other guy did not know what he was doing. At least he did the right thing and paid other guy to tune my bike.

Mike, a follow-up... The guy emailed me my Dyno run this morning. The A/F line hugs and touches the bottom of the 13 red line virtually the whole run. Does this sound ok to you? I ended up with 82.29 hp and 87.29 torque.This seems to be all the power my bike makes. I had it dynoed before and the numbers were 77.8 & 88.3 but the A/F line was very wavey above and below the line. He did a 4th gear run. I asked him about doing a 5th gear run and he said something like, bikes that make more than a certain number of hp/tq have better numbers in 5th gear others do better in 4th gear. Again it is hard to get the same answers from whoever you talk to about this stuff.

[Mike]

Your fuel line sounds fine but as stated earlier, only represents 100% throttle. I guess I do not understand the unwillingness to simply put the bike in fifth and make a run for comparison's sake, no real harm, easily done and you would then have the info. He is correct that some bikes do give either higher torque OR hp numbers in 4th vs. 5th, but rarely both, its just more info one can use when comparing to others. Props for doing the right thing on the second tune!!! BTW, if the second tune was by either Matt or Beaver, it's as good as it gets!!
Mike

[dnewman]

Mike, I apologize for not stating that I asked the first shop to do a 4th vs 5th gear run. He did the run with the previous map that was in the bike from when I had it dynoed before I changed over to the V&H dual headers. The run showed 4th gear at TQ 85.64 HP 77.68 and 5th gear at TQ 85.37 HP 78.24. I am somewhat disappointed by the numbers I get. I was hoping for tq 95-100 & hp 90. I have looked at several dyno charts in your library that are close to my setup and you seem to have better numbers. Although, I have been on some other sites and my numbers are comparable to others with my setup. I guess it is what it is. I probably should have gone with different cams. Which cams would you recommend with the flat tops and stock heads, or could I get the same type of numbers by going with a set of SE heads. I really enjoy your site. It is by far the best and most informed site in the country. I would also have to say you are the most knowledgeable guy I have seen on all aspects of Harley Davidsons.

[Mike]

Thank you for the kind words. I apologize for the late reply but I'm actually at school right now for some updates on the new models. I'm always amazed at how much new there is to learn!

As to your question, it may be the V&H true duals that are holding back the numbers. Hate to say it but we've not had good results with those. Stepped systems work much better, at least on the top end. Probably less a cam issue than exhaust.

If you do install the SE heads (a good thing) a cam change will be in order. The SE 251's work really well with those heads. Note that the SE heads also raise compression with the flat top pistons since they are decked .060 from the factory. You'll need to also change the pushrods unless you have adjustables already.
Mike