'07 Ultra 103" AGAIN

[BOZ]

Hi Mike. A friend turned me on to your site, I owe him now!
How about one more kick on the dead horse? I have a 2007 Ultra and am getting ready for some motor work. I am simply tired of my wife and her Heritage kicking my butt. Her's has much motor work and runs hard.
Here's where I am at:
Need a bike that still runs well on pump gas and still gets decent mileage (around 40mpg)
I pull a trailer for camping at rallies (6 times per year), rarely ride double and cruise 300 miles per day in the summer.
I'm afraid of a hot running motor, especially in "parade duty" and pulling the trailer.
I want tons of low and mid range torque to move this heavy bike and sometimes trailer, mid range (3000 - 4500 rpm) is still important for passing with trailer.
I still want to hear that stereo!!
My local harley dealer has a good motor guy and we have come up with the following:
SE Performance heads, forged flat tops, adjustable pushrods, 103" jugs, EFI race tuner, SE 251 cams (same as the Heritage), SE AC kit, stock header pipes and the new Super Trapp SE (elite) slip ons.
What do you think? Is the 10.5 to 1 compression ratio (static) going to cause hard starting (without releases) and hot running conditions?
I would appreciate your speedy reply as I am getting ready to do the work very soon.

Thanks,
BOZ

[Mike]

Good combo which we've done. We like the V&H classic rounds for the broad torque curve. Might add the SE 50mm throttlbody to match the 1.730 ports in the SE heads. With a 103ci motor this will not be too much and torque will not suffer with better match to the power potential of the heads.

Compression is typically a little lower than advertized due to casting variances. 10.5 is pushing it but not over the top, it's likely to be closer 10.3 when using the SE MLS head gaskets. It will run a little hotter vs lower compression but will make more torque and will run cooler compared to a stock bike. The compression release would be good backup in case the battery gets low and the heads are already drilled for them.
Let me know how it works out! Mike

[BOZ]

Thanks for the reply Mike! I feel better about the combo already.
If you have done similar builds, what numbers can I expect?
Hoping to be alittle over 100 hp and torque around 110-115 would be great. Not sure if these would be realistic or not.
As far as sound level, how do you think the Super Trapps would compare to the V&H? What type of power difference between the two?
Thanks again!! Maybe the wife's reign of terror is coming to an end!!!

Boz

[BOZ]

Hi Mike. Without giving you a chance at reponding to the last one, I have another option.
In talking to another Harley dealer in the midwest that has a great reputation for tuning bikes, I have a cheaper alternative that I would like your feedback on.
Stock heads, 103 jugs, SE 255 cams, SE flat tops (either cast or forged), Power Commander, stock pipes and the V&H rounds. Using the stock throttle body also. They say this will give more usable low to mid range torque than the prior option with less money invested.
I know opinions are like butts ... everybody has one and they all stink. But what do you think.

Boz

[Mike]

The 251 cams will be a MUCH better choice in either combo. They will produce MORE torque and hp everywhere than the 255's with less heat and easier starting. The 255's have a much greater potential for detonation requiring tuning compromise that reduce hp and tq. So the real choice then is whether the heads are worth doing. The SE heads will give about 10-15 more hp vs stock, most of this will be from 3k on but even down low will show higher numbers, all things being equal. Expect 88-92hp/95-100tq with stock heads and 255 cams. Expect 100-110hp/105-110tq with the SE heads/251 cams (5th gear, STD). The shape of the 255 combo curve will be flatter and appear to give more usable torque but also be overall lower vs the 251. The 251 combo will produce more torque, or at least the same, at it's lowest point with more everywhere else.

The SERT has much more tunability than the PC. You'll be able to tell the ECM that the motor really is a 103 rather than trying to fool it (unless you use a reflash cal for a 103 along with the PC, recommended). You'll also have access to cold start warmup, cranking fuel, idle rpm, IAC steps and other tables which the PC does not (though they are adding them as time goes) and SERT is not an additional device that must be installed to function, less to pottentially fail.
Mike

[BOZ]

Thanks again Mike. Ordered all the stuff yesterday. Should be all done within about 3 weeks.
I'll let you know how it comes out. I am going to start with the Supertrapps though. I want to start with the quietest, then I can try the V&H's later. Maybe I'd try a larger throttlebody at that time just for giggles.
Thanks again.

Boz

[BOZ]

Mike, one last thing. Could you please explain "the y-pipe modification" that I read so much about?

Thanks,
Boz

[Mike]

The "y" pipe is the rear exh head pipe that goes down to the transmission merging with a second pipe that the front head pipe fits into, creating a "y" (also has the pipe for the left side coming off near the head). If you remove this and peer down the short end, where the front head pipe fits, you'll see the rear down pipe projecting down into that pipe creating a restriction, turbulance and heat concentration. You want to grind that projection out so that when you look down the pipe from the short end, you'll have a clean, straight through hole. Check for cracks before doing so as these are common in this pipe. Another secret out!! Good for 4-6hp on 103's, more on larger motors.
Mike

[BOZ]

Hey Mike, hope all is well out west. Still cold in the midwest!
I have a bad piece of news on the build. Went over to look at the bike and the motor was torn apart again, broken head bolt.
The mechanic says it is pretty rare but has happened before. He thinks maybe something put a bind on the bolt and it broke at low rpm's just after he started it up.
Any thoughts? Should I be concerned for the future?

BOZ

[Mike]

I'm currently in Milwaukee Wi, also enjoying the nice 25-30 deg weather. Apparently there was a batch of H-D head bolts that are flawed in some way (have not had confimation on what the problem is) and they have been failing, breaking at the threads. Suggest replacing all with new bolts, checking for latest manufacture date. We've had the same problem on several Thundermountains equipped with the Jims 120 and so this info comes from T-Mountain not H-D (they use stock H-D head bolts in the 120's). We have yet to see a failure on a MoCo bike.
Mike

[BOZ]

Thanks Mike for all your input so far! I got the Ultra back last Friday, looks great and runs great (at least as a good start). Really love the tour pack moved forward behind the solo seat.
Here is where we are at after the first dyno run right after the rebuild. I now have about 200 miles on it.
108 ft lbs. torque and only 92 hp. Due to the SuperTrapp mufflers. Torque peaks at 4000 rpm with over 100 ft lbs between 3300 - 4600 rpm. The hp curve really plateaus at 4900 rpm and stays at 92 hp all the way up to 6400 rpm.
The motor pulls HARD esp. after about 2800 rpm and seems to just keep building power. A BLAST to ride already!
My question is in regards to my next move, I would like to find that "perfect match" between adding some hp while not losing torque. I would anticipate that anything I do will at least put a dip in the torque curve down low. I could live with that.
To refresh your memory - 103, forged flat tops, adjustable pushrods, SE251 cams (love 'em), SE performance heads, 10.5 - 1 (but starts great without the releases pushed) and a SERT, stock header pipes and Super Trapp SE slipons. The muffs are louder than anticipated anyway.
What impact would Rineharts have on torque and hp? My guy says they would add easily 10 hp and add some torque but put a low end dip in the torque.
How about the Kury Crushers?
What would adding a Wildthing throttlebody do in addition to the free flowing muffs?
Anything else?? And oh by the way, as my wife always says "I've got more dollars than sense". LMAO
Thanks again!

BOZ

[Mike]

I lost track of this post so I hope not to late on reply. My apologies. I agree with your guy that 10hp would not be unreasonable with the RH true duals. They still nose a little at high rpms due to length. To realize these numbers you'll need the earlier standard baffle. The last two sets we've recieved have the quite baffles installed and I believe this is now standard. These do increase low end torque lessoning the famous dip but kills hp in motors with performance cams/heads/etc. Your aware of the tq dip so this will not be an issue.

We have not tested the Crushers but Kury does not say if they are a stepped design. If not, I would be skeptical. If they are, then should work well. Another to watch are the Hard Kromes. From a design standpoint they look very promising. The Calibers looked equally good on paper but have not given the dyno numbers expected, possibly due to lack of muffler volume.

The throttle body would be a good addition since you have the potential to go over 108 hp. The stock body will limit you to around this number.
Mike

[BOZ]

Thanks Mike! Sounds like a story but I have almost 2000 miles on the rebuild already. (that's what they're for, right?)
Runs well but still falls kinda flat over 4800 rpm or so. Maybe I'll have to change the exhaust to free the beast. The Super Trapp SE's by the way do have a fairly quiet cruising tone. They do bark when wristing the throttle. Actually quieter than I had expected, nastier with the slash cut tips than with the turn downs.
I'll keep ya posted as I'm sure I'll have to keep pushing it and experimenting with exhaust / throttle body combos.

Boz

[roofeditor]

BOZ - 2007-04-16 8:31 PM

Thanks Mike for all your input so far! I got the Ultra back last Friday, looks great and runs great (at least as a good start). Really love the tour pack moved forward behind the solo seat.
Here is where we are at after the first dyno run right after the rebuild. I now have about 200 miles on it.
108 ft lbs. torque and only 92 hp. Due to the SuperTrapp mufflers. Torque peaks at 4000 rpm with over 100 ft lbs between 3300 - 4600 rpm. The hp curve really plateaus at 4900 rpm and stays at 92 hp all the way up to 6400 rpm.
The motor pulls HARD esp. after about 2800 rpm and seems to just keep building power. A BLAST to ride already!
My question is in regards to my next move, I would like to find that "perfect match" between adding some hp while not losing torque. I would anticipate that anything I do will at least put a dip in the torque curve down low. I could live with that.
To refresh your memory - 103, forged flat tops, adjustable pushrods, SE251 cams (love 'em), SE performance heads, 10.5 - 1 (but starts great without the releases pushed) and a SERT, stock header pipes and Super Trapp SE slipons. The muffs are louder than anticipated anyway.
What impact would Rineharts have on torque and hp? My guy says they would add easily 10 hp and add some torque but put a low end dip in the torque.
How about the Kury Crushers?
What would adding a Wildthing throttlebody do in addition to the free flowing muffs?
Anything else?? And oh by the way, as my wife always says "I've got more dollars than sense". LMAO
Thanks again!

BOZ

Have you considered D and D Fat cats with the quiet baffle? Many are reporting good results with that addition and most are reporting that the quiet baffle is actually much more quiet at idle and cruising but does bark at full throttle. I have not heard the quiet baffle as of yet but I have driven a Ultra with the D and D Standard and it's in my opinion loud. I'm running D and D Police interceptors and they are louder than stock but not bad at all. Just a thought.

[Mike]

Hey, ride the wheels off it! Looking forward to your updates.
Mike

[BOZ]

Thanks again Mike! Wondering if you could weight into a discussion a friend and I have been having regarding cams.
What kind of performance change, if any, would I see with this motor by changing to a Woods or Andrews cam of similar class?
He is not a SE fan and thinks that the 251 is a poor choice and prefers Woods or Andrews.

Boz

[Mike]

It's all about the timing, lift and profiles. Cams with similar specs will perform similar but there can be differences due to high velocity ramp designs and "area under the curve" differences. Andrews cams will perform basically the same for the same specs. The Woods cams (made by Andrews to his specs) use the HV ramps to increase curve area and move the valve quicker off the seat and does provide a performance advantage. This can result in slightly noisier valve train due to the dynamics. Of course the aftermarket has many choices and you may find one more closely suited to your needs. BTW, check out the T-Man Performance cams, very good.
Mike