Mike, your feelings on 07 tranny noises

[choochoo]

Don't mean to bother you with lot of posts but....
In other forums and in coffee talks face to face with other people
Hearing lot of complaints of noise primarily 5th & 6th gear in the baggers especially.
5th whining
6th noisy
Remapping and different oils have helped quiet the issue. But have not corrected the actual cause.

Any ideas?
I do a lot of tranny work on trucks etc, and gear noise causes are pretty much the same no matter what the gear train. Mesh too tight normally whines, too much back lash can just rumble, or clunk or whatever.

Remember the old open face fishing reel? how the line guide shaft was cut to move guide left and right?
Looking at HD website and the animated tranny gearing in motion, the shift bar reminds me of that.
In the way it moves the shift forks left and right to move the dogs in and out to engage the various gears.

Anyway are any of the helical cut gears still engaged when 5th or 6th is engaged (can't tell from hd site)

Couple people stated 6th is noisy only when they let off the throttle.

Just exploring some ideas here.

Thanks

[Mike]

Lots of posts are fine so long as all know that I'm not always able to respond immediately (can be a week at times).

The noises are considered normal by H-D and are a function of design changes and have not been know to cause failures. An upgraded map was released to help improve smoothness at lower rpms with the thought that continued low rpm (lugging) running could possibly lead to failures. This does not apply to those with SERT?Race cals. Complaints have been from mainly touring riders and just a very few (at least at Latus Motors). As an H-D dealership we are somewhat obligated to go with factory recommendations in this regard, especially if it becomes a warranty question. Baker drivetrains has a kit that is claimed to cure this issue but would void any H-D trans warranty still in place. We have not installed any of these and so I do not know how well they work.

5th gear does drive through one set of helicals, in addtion to the 5th gear set and main shaft but 6th is direct drive involving only the main drive gear and mainshaft.
Mike

[choochoo]

Thanks again mike.
I am in no hurry for any responses.
I am continually learning new things here and elsewhere, knowledge is a wonderful thing, but you got to go find it.
I have no plans on working for a dealership, but I will most likely find myself more and more involved with bike repair
in the near future. so it's good to learn as much as possible that the books don't necessarily show.
People I've talked to, swear they are not lugging. well guess i will have to find one to go ride and see for my self.
Do you mean to say 5th gear has a helical cut gear still engaged while 5th is actually driving off a straight cut gear?
I read that only 2nd, 3rd, 4th, gears are actually helical designed, cut and in action. where 1st,5th,6th are straight cut.

[Mike]

The power transfer to the mainshaft for 5th goes through the 6th gear set.
Mike

[choochoo]

Maybe I missed something here. Not been feeling good today.
I read in article the new 6 speed is laid out as follows
1st,5th,6th gears are strsaight cut and 2nd, 3rd, 4th are helical cut......... correct??
And according to your answer above........
Even though I am in 5th gear, helical cut; I am still driving a straight cut 6th gear
But the sliding dog for 6th is not engaged and even thought 6th and main shaft are spinning together they aren't locked together.
Is this correct?
Thanks for helping explain the power flow.

[choochoo]

Maybe I missed something here. Not been feeling good today.
I read in article the new 6 speed is laid out as follows
1st,5th,6th gears are strsaight cut and 2nd, 3rd, 4th are helical cut......... correct??
And according to your answer above........
Even though I am in 5th gear, straight cut; I am still driving a straight cut 6th gear and one helical cut gear.....correct?
But the sliding dog for 6th is not engaged and even thought 6th and main shaft are spinning together they aren't locked together.
Is this correct?
Thanks for helping explain the power flow.

[Mike]

Power flows into the mainshaft from the clutch. The sliding clutch locks 5th to the mainshaft which then turns the countershaft through its mate (5th counter). The counter shaft then turns 6th counter which then turns 6th main drive gear (sprocket shaft). So, into the mainshaft, through the 5th gear set, then throught the 6th gear set, out the main drive gear, on which the pulley is mounted. I'm going by memory, so I hope this is correct.
Mike

[choochoo]

That's pretty much what I figured from your above posts.
That and a couple other things in the design may be what's causing people
to complain noises.
In the new design a lot more metal is constantly being rotated and more gears
are actually in mesh (not necessarily engaged) From what I am reading and
seeing here and at some tranny sites.
Very well could be normal except for the select few that do have a real and different problem.
I really would like to see a cut away working model, really helps me understand the working.
Thanks.

Mike - 2007-03-08 9:22 PM

Power flows into the mainshaft from the clutch. The sliding clutch locks 5th to the mainshaft which then turns the countershaft through its mate (5th counter). The counter shaft then turns 6th counter which then turns 6th main drive gear (sprocket shaft). So, into the mainshaft, through the 5th gear set, then throught the 6th gear set, out the main drive gear, on which the pulley is mounted. I'm going by memory, so I hope this is correct.
Mike

[Mike]

Yea, it's weird that some complain and others do not. It may be a combo of both riding style and individual tranny charactor. Sometimes the Yin and Yang end up with a Yang and Yin rider.
Mike

[choochoo]

Mike one direct question Is 6th gear in any HD models helical cut. I say no but others are questioning it.
Several articles say 2nd through 4th (2,3,4) are helical. so that leaves 1,5,6 as straight cut.

Someone pulled up a spec sheet on 06 dyna it claims 6th is helical so now I am wondering. Do you have any official links
I can go to for more info. Thxs again

[Mike]

H-D's web site has some info, but best place is the service manual for your model.

H-D has two 6 speed trans style's. The Screaming Eagle accessory trans is all straight cut gears with three sliding rings.

The "Cruise Drive" trans in 06 Dyna's and all 07 big twins has helical 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th. 1st and 5th are straight cut. It's a "christmas tree" design with 3 sliding rings.

07 XL's use a 5 speed (from the Buell line) with 1st straight cut, rest helical with a combo of sliding gear and ring.

V-Rod is a 5 speed with helical 2nd, 3rd, 4th and straight 1st and 5th. Two sliding rings and one sliding gear.

Earlier models had variations of straight cut 4 and 5 speeds with sliding gears.

Mike

[choochoo]

Thanks mike, I'm looking for picture marking the parts guess will have to get manual.
Several articles say 2,3,4 are helical and 1,5,6 are straight.
The following link is at Harleys Press release site, and it says 2,3,4, helical but does not mention 6th. Maybe it was mis printed?
http://www.harley-davidson.com/CO/NEW/en/PressRelease_date.asp?locale=en_US&bmLocale=en_US&HDCWPSession=GM0K2KLXn125By2Wt4QpgQYWMs2hQbvSP9M9B XGvgZbdpDl21C3W!-1781215033!2014642736&id_in=964&dspmm=7&dspyy=2006&FROM=NEWS


Some of us have been having a debate over this Guess I need to see the manual, Well will just have to break down and buy it.
Yes I saw the S/E tranny in the 2007 accessory / performance catalog

Thanks for your patience in all this.
Maybe later this year I can cruise your way, time permitting.

[Mike]

When info is not given, some tend to assume!!! The 6th gear set is definetly helical. No problem on the patience thing ask as many questions as you like. Your questions force me to study things so that I may give accurate answers which helps you, me and other readers to become more knowledgable.
Thanks, Mike