ported htcc heads and htcc heads

[scootertrash]

I just got a 07 with a 103 stage II kit already installed, part #29921-07. This is my first new scooter since I bought my shovel in 77. It seems that most think the stock heads aren't big enough. I've got access to both the ported htcc heads and the unported htcc heads with the proper pistons at very reasonable prices. I just retired and plan to do quite a bit of highway riding but I hate being blowed off at stoplites too. I've already ordered a rbracing lsr 2-1 header with 2"primaries and I've got a sert but I've not installed either yet. I'm wanting to get a few miles on the thing before I blow the warranty but I'm collecting parts now. What are your thoughts on these heads? I don't understand the way the unported heads intake port.Looks kinda' restricted to me but I'm no porting pro. The cam that comes with this kit ,SE-255, looks pretty short on duration too. Should I got to the 50mm throttle body too when I do this? I see that you sell kind of generic maps for different setups so I'm assuming you could comeup with something kind'a in the ballpark to get me started.
I,ve been ridin' my ol' shovel for right at 30 years and it's had a S&S 93" sidewinder in it with a andrews c cam, flowed heads,and a 2" su for probably 28 of those years and I love the ol' girl but I'm tired of workin' on something everytime I want to take a trip. That's why the new scoot. I've discovered it's a whole new world. Your thoughts on what would work best would be greeatly appreciated. I'm open to any thoughts or changes in my parts sellection. Thanks
I

[Mike]

I grew up on Triumphs and Shovels. The Ported heads would be the better choice. We've seen the same or better torque numbers from these vs. the un-ported even though the unported's are supposed to build more low end torque. You have to watch ignition timing with the HTCC pistons but this can be handled by your SERT. I agree the 255's would not be a good choice, especially with the hi-comp pistons (big time detonation issues). The 251's or 257's would be a better choice (of course there are lots of aftermarket cams also). The 50mm T-body would be a good choice and help. It's still a little restricted and will top out at about 120hp (depending on a lot of other details). Can't beat the price!

We do sell maps for $42.50. I prefer to sell those that are an exact match to the entended combo but we have sold "generics" or close approximations with all the proviso that they should only be used as a base to tune from. None come with any guaruntee other than the owners for whom they were developed are pleased with them.
Thanks, Mike

I forgot to say in all that above that this is a fxstb not a bagger. I've gotten older but I haven't grown up. I know the "B" motor isn't the best choice for performance and a fx isn't the most comfortable , but it's what I like so go figure.

[Mike]

You can go with a little more cam on the lighter bikes, possibly even the 258's or similar. You'll give up some low end but a lighter bike spends less time accelerating through the torque dip so it's less noticable. The "B" motor is fine, we just have to limit rev's a little more than an "A" but we typically set both the same for most street applicatins anyway. It would only be an issue if we were building a race or dyno shootout motor (actually, some dyno motors have been built on the "B"'s. They take out the balancers to gain crankcase volume, bigger sump area, better oil scavenging and higher revs. Vibration is not considered in these applications).
Thanks, Mike

I'd actually thought about that idea of taking the balance shafts out then common sence came back .One of the best things about this bike over my shovel is the lack of viberation. That old stroker would shake every bolt on it lose. On the efi ,the size of the bore being over sized doesn't hurt your low end like it does on a carb I've been told. Is that correct? If that's the case and the 50mm would limit me do you have a better idea?

[scootertrash]

I guess I forgot to log on last night when I was asking you questions. On that last question about bore size of the throttle body, when I said low end performance I ment throttle response at lower rpm. I've been spending some quality time with the manual for the sert and if I understand correctly I will need to know what map the dealer put in and before I start messing with it. If I get a generic map for you will that still be the case? I'd like to take it and put it on a dyno and I will if I can find one within a reasonable distance from me that seems to know what they are doing. I've not spent much time around H-D dealers as when I was drag racing sportsters before I got this shovel I got to be good friends with Bonnie Truett and Paul Osborn that run Truett and Osborn cycles, so I always bought my parts from them.The dealer in Wichita back then didn't much care for drag racing. If you didn't go in a circle you weren't a real racer.The dealer I bought from is small and doesn't have a dyno. I think the dealer in Wichita now sponsers a guy on a v-rod so maybe things have changed. Does your dealership have any contacts back here in flyover country or know anyone in Kansas, Okla, Texas, or MU that they could recomend? I'd even consider going to Denver it I had to.

[Mike]

When properly mapped, throttle response and low end torque is not a problem with larger t-bodies. There is a limit however and we've found that a venturi does help promote port velocity and ehlp with overall drivability. This is a main feature of our body soon to be realease for 06 and later models.

Since every time you make a mapping change with SERT it overwrites the existing map in the ECM it is not neccessary to know the earlier map unless we want ot use it as a base from which to make changes. If you use a base map from us, you'll want to save it seperately form any changed versions so you can always go back to square one if things get out of control. Some tuners save each change as a serperate map file for this reason, they can then step back or forward through their changes. Maps cannot be retrieved from the bikes ECM so these must be saved in the computer used with the SERT.

I've not found a good tuning source in your area, not becasue they may not exist, it's just ignorance on my part. You may want to call T-Man performance. He is gathering just such a list for customers buying his motors. We do have customers ship bikes to us just for this (it always amazes and humbles me when they do), pretty expensive.

Thanks, Mike

[scootertrash]

one more question. You said that the 50mm throttle body would limit me to around 120 hp. What would the 57 mm Kuryakyn throttle body do for me. I know this is a never ending road to go down but I might go just one more step. You and your forum have been extremely helpful. Thanks a lot.

[scootertrash]

I thought of a couple more questions. I've just assumed that I should go to a gear drive when I change cams. Is that correct?
I was also thinking I should go to roller tipped rockers. How often should Ireplaced if you think I should use them? When I build a small block chevy I always use roller rockers on any lift over .500 and if it's mine I replace them about every 10,000 miles to avoid the possible failure. GMR Performance makes some that are a lot cheaper that SE parts.Do you know anything about them? I don't want to save money now and pay big time later.
Back on the throttle body. I use to have access to a small flow bench and we had some luck increasing flow on carbs by cleaning up the inside of the venturi, cleaning up the radius on the entry and polishing everything before the butterfly. Do you think that doing this on a 50mm body could possibly max out the rest of the combination of parts without springing for a 57mm body?
One last thing. Is anyone having any issues with this skinny little final drive belt on thses newer soft tails? How much power can they take and how often should a guy replace them? I've run primary belt drives on my shovel and had 2 belts come apart. My primary is enclosed so I've always thought heat rather than horsepower was the problem. I started replacing them at the start of every riding season and increased the venting for more air flow through the primary. I've not had one fail since taking these steps. If the skinny belt isn't up to the task are there any other opinions short of going to a chain? Sorry I didn't mean to write you a whole letter . Thanks once again for your help.

[Mike]

No apologies needed for the "letter". I do not believe gear drives are needed in the 07's. The hydraulic tensioners and roller chains have addressed the main issue's gear drives are entended to solve. I also, have reservations about the gears ability to maintain lash in the cam plate using plain bearings. Then add the extra cost and increase in engine noise.

Roller rockers do extend valve and guide wear and can free up some hp. Have not seen a need to change or rebuild to date with some pretty high milers out there. I do not know about the GMR's but do know that some of those unknown brands sold via the internet have been failing (breaking the pushrod end off and rollers wearing unevenly). I would not try to save a buck here, the SE's, Jim's or S&S are all good products.

We have not tried porting the stock or SE50 throttle bodies. Dakota Kid is doing this and may be getting pretty good results. We do know that the choke point in the manifold is a restriction and that there is material enough to allow some porting. It will be difficult since it is a one piece design. Our flow bench testing has confirmed this in that the flow numbers for both the stock and 50 match predicted and actual hp numbers for each. The 57 will require wire harness, injector, TPS, IAT and some wiring mods (at least to date, I do not believe they have their 06L versions available). We hope to have our 06L version available soon, it can be any size up to 58mm with a venturi change (it's a true venturi behind the throttle plate, not at the plate).

So far the belts have been standing up to 130+ ft lb torque with no failures. It makes me somewhat nervous and we are in kind of a wait and see mode on this. No real options at this time.

Thanks, Mike

[scootertrash]

I've been kind of looking around and I'm not sure anyone has a bigger throttle body ready for the 07s yet. If I'm understanding what I've read on some of the other threads, you throttle body must have a 2 peice body with a changeable venturi. Demon makes a carb like that for cars. I'm going to try to make myself wait till the summer is over before I start on this so you should have yours ready to go by then. I've just been buying parts that I need as I find the them at a decent price. I've got about everything gathered up now but the gaskets, throttle body, and I haven't decided on cams yet. YOu suggestions agreed with what I thought was right. It's just nitpickin between brands and a degree here or there. I always use to use Andrews and for a little more money they would make a custom grind for you .That was when I was younger and thought I was smarter than everyone else and there weren't any dynos around to prove you were wrong. You just had to make up a excuse why your times weren't any faster or worse yet slower.
Do you know what your throttle body is going to sell for when it's ready? or ball park price. Will the injectors and sensors off my stock body work or will have to replace those too? I'd think I'd at least need different injectors. I'm new to EFI. I was going to try to stay with carbs till I was to old to care but EFI just has too many advantages to continue to ignore. If I understand correctly ,it can go from 50 to 58 mm. So you could probably recommend a size that would work for me and if I suddenly had a spark of enlightenment or want to make some changes , could I just buy a different venturi and change it or would I have to buy a whole new throttle body?Thanks again

[Mike]

Our throttlebody should hit the market, hopefully within three months. We are targeting $995.95 retail and this includes the air cleaner, manifold and an extra venturi to your specifications. The venturi's can actually be as small as we need but can only go to 58mm max. Most users requiring a larger body will be looking for 48 and up. Because our venturi is a true venturi and placed behind the throttle plate (others place it at the plate) it will flow more air than larger bodies (similar to the Mikuni Smooth Bore affect). We will gladly change venturi's with customers when asked. This also means shops can inventory fewer bodies yet meet the varying needs of their customers. It will use stock 07 sensors, injectors and fuel rail, typically from the original owners body. Larger injectors are available and will be an option. It will also accept any air cleaner cover that fits a SE air cleaner, but uses a deeper filter element for better breathing. You'll get an installation CD, base map files for SERT and our support. We've been testing for over three years and have several on 07's.
Thanks, Mike

[scootertrash]

I've been nosing around your web site again and it's really impressive!!! The mother company could take some pointers from you folks on how to lay one out.
On my htcc cnc heads. In the past when I bought cnc ported heads I always blended the machine work with a die grinder. Polishing the exhaust and glass beading the intake port and combustion chamber. I blended, trying not to change the contour of the cnc job. What's your thoughts on this? Should I just leave em' alone? I've always done it and never ask the guys that I paid big buck too ,who do the cnc work, if I should do any more hand work.
I'm still undecided about a cam. So you don't have to go back and read the first of the post. I have a 07' fxstb with the stage II 103 kit to which I'm adding ported htcc heads, 2-1 rbracing header, SE cert,roller rockers and I have a 50 mm SE throttle body. I almost never pack, my wife doesn't do mc's, and when I travel, I travel lite so we don't need to factor in any more weight on the cam selection. There is a dyno chart in the screamin' eagle parts book of a setup like this with a 260 cam. I looked at Andrews cams and I didn't see anything that I thought looked outstanding. You had preciously suggested a perhaps a 258. Do you think I will have too much weight for the 260 to pull through the torque dip? I'm not very big ,180 lbs. Any other brands that you think I should consider? I'm not opposed to using a non-Harley part and I know there are lots out there that I've never heard of.
At what point should I consider using the high tensile cylinder studs and the forged rocker support. I don't think I'm approaching the point but it's better to ask than be sorry later.
In another post I read about a overdrive primary in the 6 speeds. If you have time could you tell me a little more? I'd been thinking about trying to drop down in gearing anyway. I haven't figured out why they went to the 6 speed anyway. I was riding down the highway on a 05 running 90 and feelin' fine about it and then figured out I was still in 4th gear. And I need a 6th? Thanks for your help Mike.