113CI

[jwoosnam]

Hi Mike-
I'm a new user to the site and want to compliment you on your knowledge and willingness to share.

I've just had my 2006 Wide Glide into the dealer for a 113 build. The kit is comprised of all SE parts and includes HTTC heads, 50MM throttle body, clutch upgrade, race tuner, and 264 cams. I run Cycle Shack tappered pipes as I like the sound and I've been told they improve performance.

A couple of questions-
1)What kind of HP and TQ #'s should I expect from the new motor?

2)I've heard that the 6 speed transmision may reduce dyno results as much as 7-8 HP, is this true?

3)I can see from earlier postings that you are not a big fan of the 264's with my combo. Would I notice a significant difference in low to mid range TQ by changing to the 260's or (maybe you have another recommendation)? In other words is it worth the money to make a change?

4) Are my pipes a good choice or would you recommend something else.

I guess like everyone, I want the bike to produce top end power and TQ but not at the expense of low to mid range performance.

Mike, thanks for your time.

Jeff

[Mike]

1. I would expect 120hp/tq, SAE 5th gear 250i dyno. Higher numbers in STD. Lower with stock baffles.
2. The 6speed combined with the overdriven primary drive does cost 4-6hp.
3. The 264's are fine so long as lmotor size and compression is high enough to support it. I would not change your combo. The cost would not justify the small increase in midrange you might gain.
4. The Cycle Shack 2" "M" pipes have historically been a good choice when the baffles are modified or removed. Any change would be based on whether the power curve is acceptable. Of course like anything we usually have to give up something to gain something else. This is true of low-mid torque vs. high end hp. I would want to review a dyno chart of your current combo, have a discussion as to what you wish the bike to do and then make recommendations based on that.
Thanks, Mike

[jwoosnam]

Mike-
A few follow-up question regarding my 113 build. A friend of mine is converting his 2002 Deuce from fuel injection to Carb (long story). Anyway, he previously had the motor built up to 120CI. As a result of the change, he has offered to give me his almost new 54MM throttle body.My questions are, should the TB easily bolt up to my 2006 Wide Glide? If so, since it's free, would it be worth the trouble? In other words, how much could I gain from this change?

I've seen other posting that seem to indicate the SE 50MM may not be enough for my combination. Just as a reminder, my kit is comprised of all SE parts and includes HTTC heads, 50MM throttle body, AIMS clutch upgrade, race tuner, and 264 cams. I run Cycle Shack tapered pipes.

A note, just got the bike back, so we still have to dyno tune it after break in. If I'm going to make a change I would imagine it's easiest to do it now.

Thanks for your help,

Jeff

[Mike]

The 54 can be installed but requires sensor and wire harness changes to do so. There are other post's on this site explaining the details. In your case I would think it would be worth doing. There are direct bolt-ons coming soon.
Mike

[jwoosnam]

Mike-
Another couple of questions. I am running Cycle Shack tapered pipes (with the O2 sensors) on my 113" 2006 Dyna. On the attached post, you mentioned that these were a good choice for power particularly when the baffles are removed or modified. I am currently running with the full baffles. Would you recommend removing or modifying the baffles, or would I be giving up too much low end TQ? If modification is my best choice, what exactly should be done to the baffles?

I don't mind (and even prefer) my bike loud and do tend to enjoy the higher end of the RPM range.

As a reminder I run all SE Parts, HTTC Heads, 264 cams, 50 MM TB, ETC.

Thanks much for your help.

Jeff

[Mike]

We're all trying to be a little quiter these days. Removing the baffles will give spectacular increases above 3700 rpm along with spectacular increases in noise. Also torque will dip pretty hard below 3500. If you cut the baffles, you'll have to cut them down to about 4 inches in lenght so that the end bolts can hold them in place without the free end rattling them loose all the time. This may be a good compromise. Of course mapping will change with each modification but you can temporarily try each to get a feel for what works and then map for that combo.
Mike

[jwoosnam]

Mike-
I've come to realize that I actually have the 1 3/4" cycle shack tapered, not the 2" on my 113 CI. Is there a significant difference, enough to invest in an upgrade to the bigger pipes? Would a compromise be to completely remove the baffles, with the thought that the small pipes might make a slightly better power curve?

Thanks for your help.

Jeff

[Mike]

The 2 inchers are the secret weapon!
Mike

[sean fxd]

No comparison on big inch bikes....go 2" cs. Watch ebay. I got my 2" CS tapers for $30.00 plus $20.00 shipping in decent shape.

Sean

[Mike]

Sweeeeet!!
Mike

[jwoosnam]

Hi Mike-
I ordered the cycle shack 2" inch tapered, but they are back ordered for up to 8 weeks. In the meantime I completed my break-in and had the new 113 dyno'd with my existing 1 3/4" tapered with the baffles removed. With the 264 cams and SE 50MM TB the bike acheived 121 HP and 123 TQ, not bad!!

The power curve looks pretty good and my dealer is recommending that I cancel my order for the 2" and stick with the current setup. Based on the dyno results, do you think I have anything to gain by moving to the 2" tapered?

Thanks for your help, again.

Jeff

[sexyharleyguy]

Im curious whos heads are you using and what are the valve sizes?

[jwoosnam]

They are SE "HTTC" heads.

[Mike]

Those are good numbers but the 2" should improve them. Past experiance indicates it would be worth the change.
Mike

[08roadkingse]

Mike,

reading your information on this 113 build; would you mind giving an opinion on my intended build? questions listed next to item;

2005 FXSTDi, currently 95ci

Heavy Breather A/C ( or Wimmer, right down the road from me)
50MM TB unmodified (Big enough?)
Intake Manifold per catalog
113 Bigger Bore cylinders (Diamond cut, because I feel like it)
SE balanced Flywheel
HTCC CNC Ported Heads, unmodified (or 103+?)
SE manual compression releases
SE Forged pistons P/N 22545-04
Wood Cam 408G
Wood Chain Drive
SE High Tensile cylinder Stud kit
Feuling Camplate (or SE Billet)
Feuling Oil Pump (or SE unit for '07)
Feuling Oil Cooler (or Jag 10 Roll)
SE Roller Rocker Arms (Required upgrade?)
SE Rocker Supports (Required upgrade?)
SE Tappets
Quick Install pushrods
SERT (already in bike)
SE Race clutch
Gaskets (Recommendation?)

Stock 5 speed now but changing to:
24T Compensator
37T clutch basket
337:1 Final drive ratio</p>

I think that's everything...

Driving style; Hard. Good friends with the rev. limiter. 99% 1-up. Bar hopper, show bike. 230-250 lb. rider (depends how close to thanksgiving I'm weighed)

Anything I missed and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. BTW-Invaluable site! Thanks for being so responsive to everyone.
Chris
</p>

[Mike]

Thank you for the kind words!
Go with the SE cam plate and pump and use the $200.00+ saved (vs the Fueling) toward gear drive cams/gears. Go with the CNC heads vs the 103+. Use matched pistons for 10.5 compression (22545-04 for CNC heads).
Do not use the SE manifold, for the non-CNC heads only.
No on the Heavy breather unless you stay with the 50mm t-body. Go with SE high flow and Zippers upgrade (must do with the 57's+).
The 50mm t-body will be marginal with the 408 cams and definitely not enough with the following cam recommendations.
The 408 cams tend to be low to mid (touring). Not a good match to your goal, riding style and the rest of the combo (interpreted as mid to high, this will affect exhaust choice also). Recommend TW9BG or similar. With these cams, use at least a 57mm t-body. Kuryakyn, HPI, or Latus (close to release).
Oil cooler, good move.
Roller rockers recommended with cams over .600 lift.
Supports good.
Studs good.
SE tappets Ok, but we use stock (use new, regardless).
No on the SE Race clutch-go with stock clutch, SE spring and TPP lockup, way better. Add SE clutch plates as an option.
Use the H-D gaskets (special for the cylinders).
3.37's good. Also, think about a 30T trans sprocket as well (bar hopper). Stay with 5 speed.
Timken left case conversion.
Send flyhweels to Hoban (Darkhorse) for plugging and welding.
Install S&S trans mainshaft primary inner race.

A good, stepped, exhaust system will be critical to bring it all together. D&D Boarzilla, Bassanni Pro Street, Cycle shack 2" M's (no baffles), similar.
SERT very good, will require good tuner.
Let us know how it works out.

[08roadkingse]

Mike,</p>

Thanks for the detailed reply! Glad to see we were going in the right direction and the additional suggestions is just what I was looking for. I'll admit some of the items you note, I'll have to research (Timken left case conversion?) but I value the advice. Will probably post back after some computer research time.</p>

Thanks again!</p>

Chris</p>

[08roadkingse]

Hey Mike,</p>

Wanted to update you on the progress of the 113 Ci I emailed you about. We're not really making any progress. I showed my service guy the list of suggestions you made. After some quick calculating, the cost of the work was within a few hundred of a brand new JIMS 120! So the brakes have been put on to regroup.</p>

How critical are the changes to the motor especially plugging and welding the crank, left case convertion, roller rockers and 57MM TB? I'm sure they help make a fantastic motor. JIMS Said a 51MM TB would &quot;work&quot; on their 120ci motor, although bigger could be better.</p>

Am I better off building a stronger, smaller ci motor?</p>

Several people have stated there are limits to the &quot;B&quot; motor in so far as hp and tq are concerned, that a counterbalanced softail motor can't run as hard as say a Dyna's?</p>

I'd like to get on with but can't seem to overcome the hurtles. They're running a 15% off L &amp; M until march 01 so my windows shrinking.</p>

If you say you have to do the other work, I'll just have to decide weather to wait or not.</p>

And one more question; Do you know if S &amp; S makes a tuned induction (air cleaner) for the 08 RK? Someone thought the throttle-by-wire was effected?</p>

Thanks for all your help,</p>

Chris</p>

[Mike]

The Jims is a good option and is a better platform from which to work. A larger motor often ends up doing less work for the same hp. A "stronger smaller ci motor" ends up trying to do more work per cube and thus is technically more stressed. Last, the Jims is designed to be larger and deal with higher power demands. Downside is a change in Engine VIN number.

Building a "B" motor is not a problem unless it is intended to be run routinely at high rpms (above 6.2k). The Timkens, crank welding/plugging, roller rockers and t-body are suggestions but not must do's. These decisions depend on hp expectations, how hard the motor is reved and budget.

Not aware of an intake for the 08's from S&S as the bolt pattern has changed.

[08roadkingse]

Thanks Mike. I think the VIN change (and the 7800.00 retail tag) does bother me for some reason and also I've fought pretty hard to stay as "in-Brand" as possible with bike changes.

If I'm understanding the concern about "routine high rpm's"; They occassional main st. blast vs. building a motor for weekends at the drag strip?

How high can I set the rev limit?

[Mike]

Street blasts OK (within the law of course). You can set rev limits with SERT, B motors should not be set higher than 6200.

[08roadkingse]

Mike,</p>

Bummer on the rev limit (I guess NOS is out of the question on the B?).</p>

Buying parts now; last chance to change the heads. Any reason to switch from the HTCC CNC Ported to 103+ (all matching pistons of course). I read in the Screamin Eagle catalog that the 103+ has a slightly larger intake valve and a bigger cylinder volume (84 vs 98).</p>

Also, any comments on Thunder Max's 54MM TB? Or has the MoCo some out with a bolt-on 54 yet?</p>

Last, What's the formula for determining cfm requirements in regards to purchasing an air induction/cleaner system? Probably using something functional and showy and the bike shows allot (Wimmer spike_)</p>

Thoughts?</p>

Chris</p>

[Mike]

The CNC's better ports more than make up for the 103's larer valves.

A new 58 has just been introduced for 06-07 non touring. For 05 and earlier, only the 50 is available from SE. The T-max, Kuryakyn or HPI will all work well.

Read this months issue of American Iron, they have CFM's for a variety of air cleaners. We typ. go by dyno results because the needs are often dictated by the rest of the combo. Our findings are the SE will support about 115-120hp, above this we install the Zippers upgrade and this seems to be good for 140-145. We came to this conclusion by measuring hp differences with and without the element installed on a variaty of combo's. Woods has elements that will support higher numbers but these become bulky.

The rest of the formula can be run on a computer program like Accelerator or Sims. Your head porter can often help with known CFM's.