2007 - 96 vs 103 Big Bore Kit

[Ultra07]

Hi Mike,

I have a new 07 Ultra Classic with the following: SE High Flow Air Filter, V&H's Oval Slip-On's and Race Tuner.

My bike runs fine but I was thinking about adding a small upgrade to get a bit more lower to mid-range power and tourqe (10-20hp) just enough to feel the difference. I don't want to go high compression anything. I ride about 15K a year, went to (6) states last year and my wife was with me most of the time. I ride most everyday to work (45 miles) and tour the rest of the time. I don't race around and don't want to add any extra heat to my engine. I want to keep it a touring/pleasure bike with a bit more bite than stock. Also, I want to retain my factory warranty.

I'm about up to my eyeballs when it comes to advise from sales/service people. My local HD Dealer Service is not much help..... to be polite! I've call a dozed HD Dealers and M/C Shops...this is what I hear.

1) Bore my exsisting jugs - buy pistons, rings, 255 cams, adjusting push rods?, remap- then dyno right after

2) Install SE Pro Big Bore Kit #29894-07 - with 255 cams, remap, change oil, then run >500 miles, then dyno

Some shops don't change oil....some shops say dyno is not required....some shops say dyno after kit is installed.......some shops say add cams only???

Prices range from $1275 - $2300

I need some expert advise on the best move for me and my riding habits. What's the best move for some extra HP/TQ and Mileage.....

Thanks for your time,
Ty

[Mike]

What will have the biggest influence on this decision is your warranty concerns. This means we must stay with "Legal" combinations. I believe this is the entent with the recomendations you've already recieved. I too would simply recommend the SE Street Legal 1690cc Stg II big bore kit. Since you already have the air cleaner you can save some money by having your cylinders bored and purchasing only the cams, pistons and gaskets vs. the kit. Pushrods are not required with this kit. Be sure to have the cylinders bored by a shop setup for and experianced with H-D cylinders (if you go this route), most auto. shops are not. We typically would recommend an oil change with installation on this or sim. kits. We also have owners who do their own oil changes and ask us not to or have the kits installed along with a scheduled service, so the oil change is part of that service.

The increase in displacement will give you a large increase in torque. The 255 cams will also complement this and the final compression ratio (when used with stock heads, gaskets and flat top pistons). Overall, it will not be overly powerfull at higher rpms yet fits your goals very well. Adding cams only will not increase torque that much (may actually decrease at lower rpms' due to increased overlap/duration) and does not pick up that much hp on top, with cams that sacrafice the least amount of torque. Also, cams only for your motor are not certified "legal" and may impact warranty.

A SERT calibration will be close but the V&H mufflers dictate that custom mapping should be performed. With the high cylinder pressures generated by the narrow cam timing of the 255's and increased engine volume, custom mapping will also limit or reduce detonation possibilities. I would start with the closest match O.E. SERT map as a base to build from. It should not require a great deal of adjusting (so long as the methodology is the same as that used by H-D), just enough to account for the muffler difference. Using the O.E. SERT map during the 500 mile, pre dyno mapping, break-in should be OK with the V&H Oval slip-ons. This may also give you the chance to be aware of some issues (if any) that you can ask the dyno operator to pay special attention to when mapping, making the bike more adapted to your individual riding style.

Last, anything we do to increase performance may impact fuel milage. Not aware of what you are getting now, but expect 40-44mpg when properly mapped. It can be tuned for more and the O2's will also help, but tuning for mpg typ. will reduce performance, at least in some areas.
Thanks, Mike

[Ultra07]

Thanks Mike,

Very helpful...info

I'm checking on the warranty issues if any for boring my exsisting jugs.

(3) of (4) HD Dealers wanted to install the Street Legal SE Big Bore Stage II Kit #29905-07.....for $1199.95 + Labor but this kit comes with Catalyst Mufflers I don't need. I guess I can turn around and resell them.

The other SE "Pro" Big Bore Stage II Kit #29893-07....at $899.95 w/o mufflers + labor....but claims to be race application, which i belive will void my HD Factory Warranty...

The kits looked to be the same except mufflers...any thoughts?

If money wasn't the main factor, but I was more interested in engine life/dependibility/reliability would you bore exsisting jugs or but the SE kit?

How long should a proper SERT calibration take? The same with a proper dyno? I hear a lot of time (hrs) differences from shop to shop...and time is money!

Now dumb questions:
What is a O.E Sert?
You mentioned oil change or sim. kits....what are sim kits?

Thanks for all your time,
Ty

By the way, I have only about 950 miles on my 07 Ultra Classic...I get about 33-35 mpg....not happy with that!

[j canuck]

Mike, sorry to hijack this thread but this is my exact dilema/predicament as well. Having utilized the SERT already, has this customer already opened up Pandora's box and technically has already voided his warranty? My concern is not only for the standard two year but what are the consequences if one goes with the MoCo extended warranty? Potentially a very costlly and upsetting experience. The extended warranty could be money thrown out the door. I trust and would hope that some common sense would prevail but I am getting concerned that this is not the same MoCo we have known and admired. I feel they are out to make life real difficult for the aftermarket segment by limiting choices for their own customers by creating an atmosphere of fear and doubt. I guess it's up to the customer to do his own due diligence if there is a state or provincial statute regulating warranties. What are the chances these days of a warranty claim on an electronics problem (very possible with an Ultra) being denied because a SERT or SE cam or, heaven forbid, an Andrews cam was installed?

[Ultra07]

Good food for thought...you might be right. I ran down stairs to look at my SERT Box...and on the back it states "warranty implications"...I guess I'll have to rely on the Dealer Warranty now....

Mike,

Ok..if that's true...I'm going to get the 103 SE "Pro" Big Bore Stage II Kit #29893-07....thought's?

Question:
Why would the SE Street Legal BB Stage II Kit require cam spacer kit #25938-00 and not be mentioned in the #29893-07 kit...they are identical kits w/o mufflers...I think? I can't understand why one is race application and the other street legal?

Thanks,
Ty

[Mike]

The warranty issue is a function of the mufflers. The 29905-07 kits includes the mufflers and assumes they would be used. When used with the kit, it is then emmisions compliant and therefore warrantable.
I prefer to bore the cylinders because we are dealing with seasoned cylinders which tend to hold there shape better, we have control over piston/cylinder fit and have control over the bore finish. It's also less expensive than purchasing new cylinders.

SERT mapping can take 2-4 hours when all goes well. It's a function of the base map used for tuning. If an exact match for your combo is available to use it does not take long. If a new map has to be developed from scratch, it'll take longer.

Sorry, I have tendency to abbreviate! "O.E. SERT" map refers to one of the maps developed by H-D available on the SERT CD. Some people refer to these as "canned" maps.

"sim kits"=similar kits. Proper SERT tuning should improve your milage. Good news is that the SERT is the tool we would use to do just that.
Thanks, Mike

[Mike]

Warranty questions need to be posed to your local dealer or those you would have do any warranty work. Claims are handled on an individual basis and may be subject to local regulations/laws (as you stated) and dealers may have their own policies as well. You may also call H-D customer service for clarification or insight.
The MOCO must respond to ever tightening requlations and emmisions compliancy. It is simply not their choice. They have actually been extremely forgiving in this respect when compared to other manufactures/industries.
I do not think it reasonable to make massive changes to our motorcycles and then expect warranties to be unaffected. What we must do is weigh the risks to our warranty, the chances of having to submit a claim, the possible cost of that claim and if we can absorb it, against the benefits/fun/pride we get from personnalizing our bikes.
Thanks, Mike

[Mike]

If you are not going to use the cat mufflers, then the 29893-07 kit makes more sense. Talk to your local dealer about warranty issues on this. The spacer kit is for 06 earlier models, new spacers were introduced for 07's and this should be checked when installing the new cams. The difference in the kits as far as one "legal" and the other not is due to emmisions compliancy. As mentioned earlier, the legal kit includes catalyst mufflers and is therfore compliant when used in it's entirety on those models listed. The race kit is intended to be used with race mufflers which are not compliant. A "legal kit" means it meets 49 or 50 state emmissions laws when used as designed and unmodified.
Thanks, Mike

[Ultra07]

Hi Mike,

That is some very valuable info....it's really hard to find anyone to sit down and explain several different options when possible upgrading is in question. I try to get as much research as possible before making a move. Our local HD service dealer is......well, I need to be polite.... but the sales guys are great!.

So I want to thank you for your time to personally reply to my questions.

Thanks,

BTW,
I'm going to doing some roaming around the site on info about the new 6 speed transmission....mine happens to be one that has the 5th gear whine, so I might be checking back with you on that issue....if I can't find anything.

[Mike]

Thank you for using our forum, I hope you get to check out some of the other features of this site. I'm just honored that my boss allows us to do this (if you check many of the reply times you'll see that much of this is done off hours). Thanks, Mike

[roofeditor]

Mike - 2007-01-06 6:38 PM

If you are not going to use the cat mufflers, then the 29893-07 kit makes more sense. Talk to your local dealer about warranty issues on this. The spacer kit is for 06 earlier models, new spacers were introduced for 07's and this should be checked when installing the new cams. The difference in the kits as far as one "legal" and the other not is due to emmisions compliancy. As mentioned earlier, the legal kit includes catalyst mufflers and is therfore compliant when used in it's entirety on those models listed. The race kit is intended to be used with race mufflers which are not compliant. A "legal kit" means it meets 49 or 50 state emmissions laws when used as designed and unmodified.
Thanks, Mike

Hi mike, reading your other posts could I assume your professional experience has been that the big bore kit 29893-07 would work better with the 251 cam VS the 255 cam.......and while I'm at it if you were going to do a 103 kit on a 07 with stock heads and SE slipons and SERT but no head work which of the cams mentioned would you use. 255, 251, and 203? While I'm at it how about a 204? this being on a heavy 07 ultra.

[Mike]

The 103 will have higher comrpession due to volume, so you can use a little more cam in lighter bikes. The 255 is an emmisions cam and the 251 is a much better choice. Lighter bikes may be able to use the 257 or even 258 for more of a high end charge. Even better when used with the Cometic .030 head gaskets. The 203/204 are too short on duration to really take advantage of the larger displacement of the motor. The percieved torque advantage is more than made up for with the higher lift of the 251's. The exhaust is the bigger player with respect to the shape of the torque curve. All these cams will bolt into 05L stock heads with the ovat (beehive) valve springs.
Mike

[roofeditor]

Thanks for the quick reply, the dealer is obviously pushing for the BB kit with the 255 cam and the CAT exhaust.

I seriously wonder how valuable the HD warranty is and if a 251 cam and D and D exhaust would really void the warranty?

Have you ever put together a Factory 103 BB with 251 cam and a D and D or Supertrapp exhaust with a good SERT tune. If so what power and torque have you seen or suspect you would see?

Thanks again.

BTW: You're pretty far away from Florida but do you know and of the quality builders like your operation in Florida? The name "Cyclerama" has come up?

[REED]

1 st Mike this is a great site great advice as well 2nd if you are worried about money and warranty then follow and stay conservative, if you are not worried about money and warranty find a good shop such as latus and let them go too it just tell them what you have in mind give them the money and let them do their job they will not let you down. one thing I learned early in life is I r4eally hate to redo things so go with what feels right buy good american made parts, if you are going to stroke it go as big as you like and same thing for bore go as big as you like, when you have to worry about someone else paying the bill it is a hassle my choice is forget the warranty go all the way, latys has the rep the parts and the people to handle any job you give them so have at it, tom

[roofeditor]

Mike - 2007-04-20 8:57 AM

The 103 will have higher comrpession due to volume, so you can use a little more cam in lighter bikes. The 255 is an emmisions cam and the 251 is a much better choice. Lighter bikes may be able to use the 257 or even 258 for more of a high end charge. Even better when used with the Cometic .030 head gaskets. The 203/204 are too short on duration to really take advantage of the larger displacement of the motor. The percieved torque advantage is more than made up for with the higher lift of the 251's. The exhaust is the bigger player with respect to the shape of the torque curve. All these cams will bolt into 05L stock heads with the ovat (beehive) valve springs.
Mike

Any idea what stock conpression is on a 96er and what it is on a 103 BB with flat tops? One more question if i may is the 251 cam a drop in cam with the BB 103 kit?

Thanks again? re

[Mike]

Thanks for the kind words REED. The 251 will be completely compatible with the 103 BB kit when used with stock heads. Heads with larger valves and thin head gaskets may require minor piston clearancing for valve to piston. The forged 103 pistons have very generous valve pockets and do not require clearancing. Stock compression on the 96's is advertized at 9.2:1, in reality closer to 9.0. My computer shows 9.8 for the 103 (with stock heads) and again likely 9.6 if measured. We would recommend using the Cometic .030 head gaskets to get close to 10.1, with the 251 cams.
Mike