se slip-ons

[xwizard44]

I have a 2007 fxdwg, If I get the SE slip-ons do I have to have anything remapped or downloaded? I'm hoping I can just put them on and go. Also, When I move up to the SE stage 1 air cleaner can I get a K&N filter instead?

[Mike]

When installing the 50 State Legal mufflers ONLY and used with STOCK air cleaner, remapping (reflash) is not require. When a high flow air cleaner is added, remapping IS required. H-D has performance calibrations available for these combo's. KN makes a replacement filter for the SE kit but I cannot see any advantage to it. The element has been changed in these kits (new black, old blue) and is of very good quality, breaths very well and can be cleaned (do not use oil). We are using the Zippers upgrade (sim to the KN) for really high hp motors, but this is for the larger capacity (wider, sim. to the CV51).
Thanks, Mike

[xwizard44]

thanks for the quick response, I was told today that the SE slip-ons would not be much louder then the stock exhaust that is already on the bike, is this true? Does the SE exhaust increase the performance? If so how much? I'm starting to think about just a stage 1 AC and a racing tuner and keeping the stack exhaust, this should increase the performance to be quite noticable. correct?

Thanks,
Steve

[mmatus02]

Hi Mike,
XWizard stated:

I have a 2007 fxdwg, If I get the SE slip-ons do I have to have anything remapped or downloaded? I'm hoping I can just put them on and go. Also, When I move up to the SE stage 1 air cleaner ca
can I get a K&N filter instead?

Mike, I too have a similar question I have a 2007FLSTC Heritage Softail that I am looking at the se slip-ons for added sound and I am being told by some dealers that I do not require remapping nor do I require fuel chip? and other dealers are telling me that I do need the remapping and the high flow air cleaner. I am being told that the se slip-ons changes the air flow and if I do not have them install the high flow air cleaner and the remapping the bike will sputter and die.
We are talking $900+ dollars 3 hours labor included as opposed to $310 for the se slip-ons.

Please advice if I can apply the same logic that you advised XWizard.

When installing the 50 State Legal mufflers ONLY and used with STOCK air cleaner, remapping (reflash) is not require.

Pelase elaborate

Thanks.

Manny

[Mike]

The 50 state LEGAL mufflers have a different, deeper exhaust tone, not much louder than stock. Performance increases when used with the STOCK air cleaner may be around 2 hp. It's an air in-air out thing. The stock air cleaner becomes the main restriction to air flow and does not allow an increase in air flow even though higher flowing mufflers are installed, therefore, since air flow has not dramatically changed recalibration is not required. The small air flow change can be accounted for by the closed loop system in part throttle and cruise areas. The small air flow change is also why there is not much of a performance gain.

We increase hp by increasing the amount of air the motor can process and then cause/tune the fuel mapping to match that change in air flow at all points. If the SE mufflers are used with the SE air cleaner, air flow is changed to the point that remapping/recalibration IS required and hp can increase 4-12, depending on model. By letting more air in, now the mufflers allow more air out, so the COMBINATION allows the motor to process more air and make more hp. Similar affect happens when only the air cleaner is changed but not the mufflers, not much change in air flow because now the mufflers become the main restriction (though, the air cleaner has a great enough affect in this scenario that remapping is required).

Two things are considered to decide if remapping is required. First, what is the range of the closed loop systems capabilty to correct for air flow changes. Two, is any air flow change made great enough to be outside the closed loop's range and, by default, great enough to require fuel delivery changes to match (only this last part is considered on non-O2 bikes, pre 07/06 dyna). To the first, know that the O2's range is VERY limited (the SE air cleaner only, with stock mufflers, can cause enough of an air flow change that the O2's cannot account for it, and hence H-D has recalibrations for this combo.).

Next, is an H-D reflash calibration only adequate or should SE Race Tuner (or sim. device) be considered. If the COMBINATION EXACTLY MATCHES the combo. for which a reflash was created, reflash calibration is fine and recommended. If the combination DOES NOT EXACTLY MATCH (typ. exhaust), then SERT or similar tuning device is required so the fuel mapping can be corrected to match the changed air flow caused by those component changes.
As can be seen, the exhaust has an extremely large affect on air flow (in fact the single largest affect of any one component), is the most commonly changed component and has the greatest variety of choices (and variety in how the air flow is changed).

In summary, it's ALL about air flow and how the motor processes that air. This is true of motor size, cam, throttlebody, turbo/supercharger and exhaust choices. An example of this is that the SERT main tuning tables are expressed in VE (volumetric efficiency), which is a measure of air flow. When look at in this way, it can also be realized why the exhaust has such a large afffect on the shape of the torque/hp curves and the charactor of the bike's performance and why this choice becomes so important (see our exhaust dyno folder in our dyno library on this site).

I realize this was a long winded response to your questions, but it is also the most commonly mis-understood subject with respect to H-D's EFI systems (especially with the introduction of the O2 sensor/closed loop systems). I hope this helps and does not further confuse.
Thanks, Mike

[xwizard44]

One last question Mike, I promise. Can I put Vance Hines Straightshots HS slip-ons on without having to do any remapping or downloading? I heard a sound clip and really like the sound.

Thanks again,
Steve

[Mike]

The V&H WILL require remapping with SERT or other (V&H Fuel Pak would work excellent with this), to be correct. Downloads will not be available since it is not an H-D product.

I realize many have done, and others will do, so without remapping and are very pleased. They do, however, run several risks in so doing and may not realize how much better the bikes could be when properly mapped. When asked such questions, we must ask ourselves "what is the correct thing to do?". We cannot risk a customers $13,000+ investment in an effort to save $500.00-$800.00 on correcting the tune (especially after they've just spent $500.00-$1000.00 on the exhaust that neccessitated the remap). Not remapping (in some form), simply, is not the correct thing to do for us or the customer in such cases. To look at it another way, if we were to make such changes to a carbureted bike, would we do so without rejetting? What would be the owners reponse if we did so? Remapping is just an electronic way of rejetting.
Thanks, Mike

[xwizard44]

I quess the VH are a no go, I'm just tring to find a set-up that is a little bit louder. I have pretty much settled on the SE slip-ons and the Stage 1 AC. Are these stock items at Latus?

Thanks,
Steve

[Mike]

Two options on the mufflers, slash down p/n 80493-07, or slash out p/n 80492-07 ($309.95). Not in stock. The air cleaner kit is 29440-99D ($139.95), in stock. The reflash calibration for this combo. p/n 34454-07B($149.95), available through DT.
Thanks, Mike

[edelmon]

Mike,
I had a Stage 1 AC and SE slipons installed at my dealer. they told me that they had a bulletin that stated there was no need to reflash, as the system would accomodate those two changes. After reading this thread, I'm afraid they may have read it wrong. What kind of damage may have been done so far? I took it in to get the recall flash and they wouldn't do it, said there wasn't one available for the setup I have. That leads me to believe that there really needs to be a reflash for this setup. The bike is an 07 Ultra Classic. Should I find another dealer?
Thanks for any advice!

TE

[Mike]

Do not find another dealer. It is difficult for any dealer (including us) to keep up with this constantly moving target. I will do what research I can to see if I've missed something or A'm incorrect. I will be happy to be corrected (you won't be the first). To date, I've not seen a bulletin that contradicts my statements in the reply above.
If your are using 50 STATE LEGAL MUFFLERS ONLY (NO air cleaner kit-stock air cleaner installed), you DO NOT require a download. If you have an air cleaner kit installed, then you DO require a download (even with stock mufflers). Harley has one available for this combo (and states in the SE Pro catalog for air cleaner kit p/n 29440-99D, ECM recalibration required, with no exception for 07's).
You state that you have BOTH mufflers and air cleaner. When a calibration search is made (for your year and combo), the recommended cal. comes up 34455-07B. Available through your dealer on Digital Technician.
As far as damage, it is doubtful any has occured. Signs preceeding such possibilities would typically be increased detonation, high oil/exhaust temps, hestitations and other drivablility issue's. So you have some warning signs before damage occurs.
Thanks, Mike

[edelmon]

So I got the Stage 1 flash + the recall flash. The bike has stopped pinging and ran very well through all gears last night. Right now, engine wise it is exactly where I want it. The only thing left to resolve is the one thing everyone says is not a problem and that is the 5th gear noise. I know what whine is (I hear it in 1st gear) this is not whine. It only happens in 5th under acceleration put the cruise on @ 60 in 5th - no noise. Twist the throttle a hair - lots of metallic clanking clattering noise. Do you think Harley will figure this out? Do you think they are trying? This is the perfect motorcycle in every other way and I am very satsified with it but 5th gear is a major annoyance (even with the mufflers) on the backroads I ride here in the Texas Hill Country because it is pretty much a requirement to run in it 90% of the time. What do you think?

[Mike]

First and Fifth gears are unique in that they are straight cut (spur) gears, where the rest are bevel (helical) and so first and fifth can have a different sound. To date, we know of no failures associated with this difference. The "B" calibration upgrade was introduced to help smooth power pulses and reduce shock loads through the drive train, which should also reduce noise. The new noise charactor of the 6 speeds and primary drive redesign is considered normal. We are not privy to pending changes and at this time are not aware of any regarding the transmission. Best advise I can give, at this time, is to keep your dealer advised of your concern.
Thanks, Mike

[edelmon]

Mike,

I understand what you are saying, what all dealers are saying. My followup question then is, why doesn't 1st gear make all the noise? If it is "the design", then 1st should sound the same, correct?

Sorry to go off topic here......

Terry Edelmon

[Mike]

Not neccessarily, since first will see different loads, load cycles and rotational speeds vs fifth. Gear diameters, differences in ratios, tooth contact and drive pathway also play roles. Single gear profiling and design is incredibly complex and something of a black art (even with computer gear tooth profile designs), then multiplied by twelve (14 actually, since the shafts also act as gears [splines]).
Thanks, Mike