103 to 113" Upgrades??

I just spent several hours going through your website ... great information. Looked at nearly all the Dyno Printouts and options. :-)

I posted these basic questions on another forum and someone suggested I post them here. Hope this is the right place.

Currently have a 2003 Dyna Wide Glide - 103" built a couple of years ago. Coming off a very well built S&S 107", I have never been completely happy with the 103". The dealer has just offered a "Winter Special" ... and I can get a bump to 113" for $1500, since I already have most of the upgrade with the 103" engine. I'll end up spending more on a carb and exhaust, but ... "Oh Well".

The 103" build was almost right out of the book;

SE HTCC CNC Ported Heads/Pistons
260 Cams
Screaming Eagle "Pro" Crank
6200 RPM Ignition,
Adjustable Rods,
Etc, Etc, Etc ....

Only differences were the 44MM CV, and Hard Khrome 2-1 Xccelerator Exhaust, both of which I expect to have to upgrade at the same time.

I have read hundreds of these threads in my last few months as a "Lurker", and have been noticing that people using the SE 257/258 cams seem to be developing better HP & Torque numbers than I get with the 260's (100HP/110TQ).

I have been considering going to one of these other cams while the engine is apart. Looking for some "Experienced" cam recommendations for the 113" engine. I have considered some gear driven options, and haven't ruled them out yet. Don't care for the "Whine" I had experienced riding an acquaintance's bike. More importantly, the dealer will give me a written, one year warrantee on the motor if I use all Screaming Eagle parts. Can always put a gear drive in later.

Questions;

1) Have you had the same experience with "Less" of a cam providing better overall numbers ... I'm leaning towards an SE 257. Would this be appropriate for the 113" engine?

2) Not sure the 44MM CV is up to the task. Been leaning towards a Mikuni HSR 48 carb, but can't seem to find a manifold to fit these HTCC Ported heads. Would an HSR 45 feed this engine? (Considering I already have the manifold). I could go with a 51 MM CV, but I noticed the 48MM flows more CFM ... Better Velocity maybe?

3) Exhaust ... what a nightmare ... love the looks and sound of my current pipes, but this time around I want to match exhaust to get the most performance. Many have recommended going to a 2" exhaust, but don't want to push my powerband up too high. Maybe a "Stepped System"?

A couple of other tidbits. Timken upgrade will be done. The dyna will be my second bike. I plan on buying a Road Glide for a daily driver. I'm a rider of extremes. Most of the time I putt around at 2000-2500 RPM, but when I hit the gas, I do wind it up to 5500-6000. I like acceleration :-)

Too bad I'm all the way across the country, or I'd just drop the bike off.

Thanks In Advance,

Ken

[Mike]

Thank you for using our site! The 260 cams are a bit too much for a 103 and we do get better results with the 257/258's, depending on compression ratio. But, the 113 will like the 260 better so long as you have 10.2-10.7 compression (mechanical). The Timken conv. is very good and worth doing when the engine is apart. I'm a huge Mikuni fan and believe the 48 would be a good choice (not too big for a 113, CNC heads). The higher flow numbers are due to less turbulance (smooth bore). Any manifold that adapts the 48 to stock heads should work (only the non-CNC HTCC heads require the special "D" manifold). Zippers, T-man and Rivera all make kits to make install easier. The 51 CV would be a good choice for touring models as it is a little more user friendly with big altitude changes, but will not make the hp numbers of the 48 Mik. Ahhh, exhaust!!!??? The most unpredictable and enfluential part of the whole system. Stepped systems almost always work better than non-stepped, more so as motor size goes up. The D&D Boarzilla gives the best dyno numbers but is very loud. The Bassanni Pro-Streets are another good but loud choice. To bad about the distance thing, though I do have a customer in South Carolina that ships his bikes to us.
Thanks, Mike

[thundercatken]

Thanks for the quick response. That's the fist good percise set of answers I've recieved. And, most of it was what I was leaning towords anyhow.

* The book says I will be getting 10.5-1 compression, so I may very well stick with the 260 cams.
* The heads I have are the HTCC CNC Ported - Part Number 16925-02. maybe I have been reading prior material wrong, but you say these do not have the "D" Port? That's some good news I didn't expect. The HSR 48 is also my first choice. I'm at Sea Level and I don't think the highest elevation I hit is much over 2000', and that is only rarely when I ride to New Hampshire. Probably won't be re-jetting.
* I have had others stear me towords the Boarzilla Exhaust too. The system I have now is as loud ... if not louder than a Thunderheader. :o Was kind of hoping for a more quiet option ... oh well.

As far as shipping the bike ... That scares the hell out of me ... especially with a $4000+ paint Job. In the event I get totally frustrated and start considering that option, do I call the number on the website to get a hold of you to talk more in depth, get estimates, et, etc, ....?

[Mike]

I was just kind of throwing the shipping thing out there. I'm really amazed people do it (guess I should be honored and I am). We do get a number of bike from mid to northern California (this may stop with the new laws in that state), Seattle Wa. and Boise Idaho. Still amazed!!! There are some good shops/dealers out there who are just as smart (or smarter), problem is I do not know who they are to recommend. Some good choices are Hal's, Zippers, T-man performance or ask for recommendations from companies like Axtell Sales, Baisley and the above for possibilities in your area. As EFI becomes more and more the standard, it will be enteresting to see much knowledge regarding carburetion tuning will be lost (already seeing this happen). Right now it is difficult to find a good EFI tuner but as this gets easier (more people become proficiant) it will be equally as hard to find a good carb tuner (old technology).
Mike

[thundercatken]

Checked out the shipping ... $1,000+ each way. Up to 4 weeks transit time. Need to think real seriously about that.

If you'd be so kind to comment on a couple last points.

If I read these charts correctly ... the new SE 264 cams have a higher lift, but some Slightly shorter durations/timing, open/close, etc. True? Seems like a slightly more conservative numbers with higher lift. If so would they be a better cam choice? Any experience with them ... coupldn't find one in the Dyno Charts (Didn't look at all of them though.)

Also, if choosing one gear driven cam for this set-up (All Screaming Eagle except the cam), what would it be?

Lastly. I have the SE 6200 Race ignition ... non adjustable. Thinking I should move up to the fully adjustable ignition. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ken

[Mike]

The 264's have slightly more intake duration vs. the 260's but much later intake closing, reducing cylinder pressure unless mechanical compression is increased to compensate (easier starting though). Would not be a bad choice for the 113 with 10.7 compression. Gear drive cam of choice would be the T-man performance 650. Definitley do an adjustable ignition, you'll amazed at how much more performance can be gained with proper ignition tuning (just tuned a TC Branch setup and the igntion made all the difference).
Thanks, Mike

[thundercatken]

Thanks for taking your time to answer these questions. Pretty much confirmed the general direction I was going. But you saved me a lot of time and research. I wish it wasn't 3,026.95 miles away. :(

Went to large bike run last weekend and got to listen to a couple of D&D Pipes ... 2 Fatcats and a Boarzilla I used to think mine were loud ... Holy S***. :o

I may go with the Boarzilla anyhow (And some ear plugs), since this will be my second bike (My Hot Rod). I found a few dyno runs with almost identical builds to my current 103" build. The D&D Pipes are consistantly producing 15-20% more power than my current pipe ... So at 113" it could only be better. BUT if you ever find a worthwhile performance pipe that produces significantly less db, Please post it.

Thanks again,

Ken

[Mike]

We are desperately looking for quieter performance pipes. Until owners are willing to put Mack truck sized mufflers and collectors in their bikes, it's going to be a tough sell. Dumb thing is they are putting Mack truck sized tires on them. Look at the size of stock pipes on most Litre sized import bikes. Other than moving the power curve around most aftermarket systems for these do not increase hp, so it can be done (also true of V-rods, most pipes actually hurt power due to loss of volume). Note on the Boarzilla's (BTW, I agree with the Holy S*** noise part), they are being discontinued (pos due to the noise) and may no longer be available. We are building a max. effort 110 for American Iron Magazine and hope to use a Boarzilla, but when done we want to put a quieter system (pos. a Fatcat) to demsostrate what diff. can be expected as we continue to go toward quieter systems. You can bet we'll be posting our findings (I'm horribly behind on that part right now and apologize to all for lack of dyno library updates, please be patient, they are comming).
Thanks, Mike

[thundercatken]

Wow ... the Boarzilla is being discontinued? I just got a return call from D&D last friday ... said that a "Quiet Pak" was available for roughly $300 more. I'm surprized that they would even develope it for a pipe going out of production. Any experience with a "Quiet Boarzilla? (I know, I know ... a contradiction in term).

I better make a decision soon. Also had a chance to listen to the RB LSR. It is also very loud, but didn't seem quite as bad as the Boarzilla under normal load, but that could be an illusion because the rumble seemed deeper and lower tone than the Boarzilla. Both were loud as hell wide open. I just don't know of ... or more specifically ... actually seen/heard any other larger bore pipes (stepped or full length 2" pipes).

I'll be looking foward to the article about the 110' build in American Iron ... I have a subscription :)

Updates...

* I looked into the T-man cams ... looks good ... but the dealer will only warrantee the motor if I go all Screaming Eagle ... so I'm gonna stick with the existing 260 cams for now. If I don't blow it up in a year, I'll make the switch. Funny, when I told the dealer I wanted a Timkin upgrade and the crank welded, they were fine with it ... oh well.
* I have pretty much decided on a Mikuni HSR 48, but I need to find the right kit. Mikuni says it won't clear a stock tank ... Zippers said it will. I also need to find the right air cleaner that doesn't push my knee out. Otherwise I may go with the HSR 45.

Thanks for your time and knowledge.

[Mike]

Could be that the current "version" of the Boarzilla will be discontinued to be replace with the quieter version. We're talking with them now and hope to have more info. (just going by what our chrome consultant is saying). We'll figure it out as part of the mag. build. The Zippers 48 kit will work fine. You'll need to trim the top two inside cylinder fins to clear the float bowl.
Thanks, Mike

can someone tell me what performance I can expect from a all harley 113 pro crank 264 cam 44cv carb 264 cam htcc non ported heads using these to gain tq already have them. IM running the 113 htcc pistons as well big air cleaner race tuner pro pipe 2in 1 exhause race baffle yadda yadda yadda

I was told 115 hp 115 tq rear wheel hp

[Mike]

The non ported heads may a bit of a fly in the ointment but 110 hp with the 44CV sounds reasonable. Maybe a little higher on the tq (115-120) considering the race baffle/264 cams, but with a dip around 2700 rpm. STD, 5th gear numbers.
Mike

Hey expert thanks for the info. I used the se non ported htcc heads to help built torque for the bagger plus I already have them I just put bigger springs in. Can you amke any suggestions short of a different cam that would be cost benefit effective? The motor is being done for a price of 3800.00 which included a new race clutch and easy clutch set up. I also used the se 44 cv because it was on the bike already. Is the carb big enough?

I just got my bike dyno'd. It made 104 hp but a whopping 127ftlbs of tq. It no has the largest slow jet for my 44 cv thats available and 3.5 turns out. the bikes a bit lean runs betweem 13.7 and 14.2 but im told that number is a bit higher than they like but not a concern. I guess when I have some cash ill try a different carb maybe 48 mikuni?.If I sent my heads out this winter say to you what would i do to get more hp without hurting my tq. I have se non ported heads. I was thinking larger intake valve maybe some porting but leaving the exhaust valve in its current configuration. im hapy with the tq would enjoy more hp

[thundercatken]

sexyharleyguy1 - 2007-04-19 10:01 AM

I just got my bike dyno'd. It made 104 hp but a whopping 127ftlbs of tq. It no has the largest slow jet for my 44 cv thats available and 3.5 turns out. the bikes a bit lean runs betweem 13.7 and 14.2 but im told that number is a bit higher than they like but not a concern. I guess when I have some cash ill try a different carb maybe 48 mikuni?.If I sent my heads out this winter say to you what would i do to get more hp without hurting my tq. I have se non ported heads. I was thinking larger intake valve maybe some porting but leaving the exhaust valve in its current configuration. im hapy with the tq would enjoy more hp

I just had this exact conversation with "Big Boyz Head Porting" a month or so ago.

About the Basic HTCC vs HTCC CNC heads and carburation. They do port the basic HTCC heads, but told me there isn't much to do with the CNC heads. Only a basic "Clean Up" and making sure the chambers are CC'd properly. Also ... the 45MM Mikuni is a"Bolt On" ... where as the 48MM requires trimming your cylinder fins to make it fit. You may wish to try the 45 Mikuni first. If you read some of these other posts, you'll see that the Mikuni's flow more than the CV ... example ... a 40 MM Mikuni flows about the same as a 44MM CV. From what data I've seen online ... the 45 Mikuni flows almost as much as the 51MM CV. If you can get your hands on a used 45MM Mikuni for half price, I'd try that first. I think it will bolt right up to your existing manifold (Better check that though). Going to the 48MM is sort of a "One Way" trip, by virtue of the fact that you have to cut some fins on your cylinder to make it fit.

FYI - When all was said and done ... My HTCC CNC heads are now sitting in a box. I opted to go with a set of R&R Cycles cast heads, and the 48MM Mikuni ... although I am now at 124". I decided that as long as I was splitting the cases, I might as well go as big as I can. Since this was a 2003 bike all ready out of warrantee, I also gave up on the idea of building all Harley. I'm waiting until the 2008 model year and ordering a new Road Glide for my primary vehicle. That one will get the 113 treatment right out the door and a long warrantee. THAT IS ... IF latus Motors has their new Throttle body available by then. Hey Mike ... Hint Hint ;)

Thunder are those heads for sale? Are they new or used? My email is sexyharleyguy1@aol.com

[thundercatken]

sexyharleyguy - 2007-04-19 1:05 PM

Thunder are those heads for sale? Are they new or used? My email is sexyharleyguy1@aol.com

Not yet ... I have boxes of parts here ranging form the original 88" top end and crank, Miscelaneous 1550 parts and the 103" top end (I can go either 95" or 103" with what I have). I have 2 bike projects coming up. I'm ordering a new road glide, and buying something for my girlfriend ... she wants to sell the sprtster and get a "Real" Harley (Her words). I'm waiting until I order the new bike(s) to see what I can recycle ... if any. Also deciding on how much power I want to gove her. :)

All parts are used ... 103" top end has about 17,000 miles. The rest have less than 5,000.

Expert can you advise as to wether thhe se 44mm cv is big enough for a 113 with 264 cams heads ect

[sexyharleyguy]

ok guys I just got back from vacation. my build has 4000 miles on it.A113 all harley. I am using se 44mm cv card 264 am htcc non ported heads vance and hines 2 in 1 exhaust with race baffle and se race tuner se high flow air cleaner. If you have a bagger or heavy bike you want torque. I got 104 hp and 127 real life not bs tq. 2 up with luggage this bike from 3 k to 5500 wil pull your arms off. no more shifting down in 5tf gear at 85 mph twist the throttle your at 100mph quick. The htcc has smaller valves adding to torque but restricting hp output. I also believ the smaller 44 mm cv carb helps build torque due to smallish throat size but also helps hold back hp. If you wanna pull hard consider this combo. A follow up fine tune dyno session is in the works. more to come.

Expert your thoughts please.

[sexyharleyguy]

I have what I feel is two verfy nice curves no drips no up the wall sections just nice curves. my numbers are with the air cleaner on.

[sexyharleyguy]

mike how do you feel about my choice of exhaust.I dont want a defening loud pipe but do want performance.

[Mike]

Do not use that word "expert" too loosely. Ha, Ha! I would recommend the 51 CV or Mikuni 45 based on the assumption that your head work can support the 264 cams. The 48 would be a better match to the 264 cams but requires more work to install and is higher priced, in kit form. The 44 may be OK if the bike is not reved routinely to high rpms and peak hp numbers are not the goal, it will carry low end tq pretty well, but this scenario would also be better with the 258 or 260 cams. The 264's hint at a desire for high end hp so thats what I'm basing this recommendation on.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

mike I'm using the htcc non portd small valve heads?
IM quite surprised i got an honest 127 hp at 6500 rpm.
Your opinion on my exhaust vance and hines 2 in 1 pro pipe race baffle. I assume I have about as good tq as i can expect at 127 but the hp being 104 makes me wonder if that can be improved with the setup listed above.

[sexyharleyguy]

I know this is kinda of a bastard build using stuff i had with new stuff I bought.Would you care to have a copy of my final dyno sheet?

[Mike]

If you do not mind posting, I'd like to see your chart. Good numbers, you may want to stay with what you've got. Going for the hp most likely will sacrifice tq and tq is what you feel when you crack the throttle. If we did not have dyno's we would be building more tq oriented motors because the "happy gauge" would be the seat of the pants feel.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

I'll be visiting my motor guy today.Ill get a copy o the run and try to post.If not would you like a hard copy.
Final dyno run coming soon. my low sped jet which is the largest the 44mm cv race kit offers is too small.My motor guy ordered a 51 kit he said the jet threads are the same he's hoping the needles will be ok with my 44cv.

[Mike]

Yes you can use the 51 slow jets but the needle will not work (to long). Let me know on the chart. You can mail, e-mail or whatever works best for you. I'll give you the required info if/when needed.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

We have the largest slow jet in the carb now. If we use the larger 51mm cv carb jets can we use the 44 needles. If not how can I get more slow speed fuel. The reason why we are trying for more is I experience some hard starting . I can hit the button the fire the motor and it will fire right up. Shut motor off right away and it may take 6 or 7 tries for it to fire. Or others times it doesn't want to fire . then will after a few starting cycles. Sometimes I have to hit the throttle during cranking to fire. Other times the motor seem to get pent up on starting and if I keep cranking it will release pressure through the exhaust pipe in the form of a loud pop similiar to a backfire but im sure its not that. I think the cylinders . Once started it runs fine and pulls extremely hard. the only other issue i have is poppig on decl not sure myself whatcauses that ut the dyno ghuy said he can get it out.can you shed sme light on this?

[sexyharleyguy]

of course the 45 mik is a choice but i hate to loose any of my 127 tq

[Mike]

It may be the heads and ports are retaining heat and may be causing the bike to go overrich on restart. It may also be just learning what the correct amount of prime and choke is required for different temperatures.

Another problem you may be experiancing is a large voltage drop when starting. The torque (and cylinder pressures required to get that torque) and motor size can reduce voltage to the coil while cranking to the point that hard starting can occure. We've found that changing the battery cables to the high wire count type, like Terry Components, really helps. But the trick is to run an additional ground straight from the one of the starter mounting bolts to the battery terminal (not to the frame where it normally is, you'll still need the frame ground though).

The decel pop on carbureted bikes can usually be cured by richening the idle mixture screw. This may also help starting if it is set too lean.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

The idle screw is out 3.5 turns so its a new jet im sure to richen her up a bit on starting.
IM running a high torque starter in addition to comp release. I assume that starter takes alot more juice. I have noticed If I shut the radio off it "appears to give better starting performance. Come to think of it this problem occurred with my 95 inch a 10.5 to 1 engine as well using the same stater. I think your right on track.
You'll get that dyno sheet soon I have to get it scanned.
I usually don't go this way but if your not married........ HAHA........

[Mike]

Married to my job!!

[sexyharleyguy]

Mike I'm having trouble getting the dyno sheet on the web can you send your fax number I will gladly fax it. Sexyharleyguy1@aol.com. I will also let you know what final jetting we used in the 44cv. I am cyurrently experiencing fuel mileage about 33 mpg which I find horrendous but I'll pay the price for fun. My slow jet curently is too small and high speed is good so I do not expect the rejet to make it better.If anything a tinge worse.

[Mike]

Fax is 503-542-7594. FYI, our site will not allow files over 100kb (most dyno charts are in JPG and are typ around 125-165KB) to be downloaded. If you convert to a GIF file format (we use "fireworks"), you can select a target file size of less than 100 and it'll go through. You'll see that our dyno charts listed here are GIF files for this reason and so that they will download faster (one reason why I'm behind, have to do the conversions among other things).

Milage is mostly a function of the needle position. You may be able to change to a leaner needle and/or stiffer spring (in the SE Tuners Kit for the 44) to help. Even heavily built motors should get around 40-44 when in cruise mode.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

Mike I am still waiting on those 51 jets they must be in a black hole somewhere. I went to the shop yesterday and the printer is printing gibberish. I think it's a driver issue. To be straightened out soon I hope so I can send you the copy of the run. I took a good look at the dyno chart on the screen. Its a 5th gear pull 104 hp 127 tq. The graph looks odd. It resmbles a set of butt cheeks . Both curves appear ver very nice with no dips. The thing I am curious about is that the tq and hp converge at approx 4800 rpm. I understand that they always cross at 5200. Can you explain whats going on or am i just wrong about my assumption. Could it be a function of the high tq verses the significantly lower hp due to the small valves thats causing this to occur. I promise I'll get you the chart. It is a dynojet dyno machine vintage 10 years I assume. Has been repaired recently within 2 months of my run so I assume it's running right.



Also the terry components cables have not been installed yet. I have resorted to shutting my radio off and spot lights also during starting and the increase in available electrical capacity seems to be helping. Once those cables are on and the idle circuit is richened I am sure the starting will be good.

[thundercatken]

FYI - I ended up going with a 1.8kw Terry Components starter and their cables. Amazingly, it seems that the stock battery is OK with this set-up .... for now.

[sexyharleyguy]

Hey Mike It seems that finally my 51 race tune kit showed up. I Have done a 3 oil change change service. I am having the dealer put a new metzler me800 rear tire on (much much beter than dunlops I ran for years). They also at that time will be putting the terry components cables on that you reccomended. More to follow and dyno sheet too. If printer is still screwed up ill get it electronically if possible and take it home rpint it and fax to you.

[Mike]

FYI-DO NOT run the ME880 tire on the dyno for tuning, if it is made in Brazil. Ok for base runs, those made in Germany also Ok for dyno.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

MIke ,
Why shouldnt I run the me880 on the dyno. I have run these for years there were present on the bike during the last run. My old one from last run is currnetly whiped tread wise. Scoot needs new rubber. Can you clarify what you said about brazil and german me880 last message was a bit cryptic

[sexyharleyguy]

How will I know where The tire was made?

[Mike]

The German version says "Made in Germany" in REALLY big letters on the side wall. The Brasilian version say "Brasilia" in REALLY tiny letters. Rumor has it that the German version may no longer be available in the states.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

OK I checked mine says brazil. I assume theres an issue with brazillian made me 880 's. Myabe it's time to go back to dunlop. Although cornigning is so much nicer with the metzlers. I tried surfing the web and noticed there was a recall in the past . I couldnt get the recall to open.But in cooments there was mention of high speed wobble and of blistering of tires. I assumed They ment in the recalled tires only.
So I am assuming for your prior post that the brazil tire is inferior to its german counter part. I have noticed in the last year or so the mileage I have gotten out of the metzlers has decreased. I was gettng * k on a rear now about 6 maybe 7 k.

[Mike]

Your 113 will wear tires quicker due to the increased torque. Metzler has a dyno disclaimer in the their literature and does not recommend running them on dyno's.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

Ah ok The ole cover the cheeks routine. Corporate cover up lol.

Thanks you really are a treasure to us Mike.
Will your team be in the new york state area racing?

[sexyharleyguy]

OK Mike I faxed yu the chart this am. It's a 5th gear pull. I asked the guy that did the dyno run I believe he said smoothing 4. Must be thats why that odd graph.Would you look it over and make any comments.
I can tell you one thing I have to be careful this will spin the tires on a 800lb dresser withh 250 pounds of idiot on it very easily.

[sexyharleyguy]

mike I just noticed that the scales for tq and hp are not the same. Is this the reason tq and hp dont cross at 5250?

[Mike]

Got it! Yes, with "forced" scaling (same on both axis) the tq/hp would cross at 5250. The smoothing number is not an issue. We use lower numbers to help diagnos possible drivetrain issues. Looks good with a nice peak.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy]

By the way we ended up witha 150 jet from the 44 race tune kit for idle circuit the bikes starts like a wh... with a 100 bill in front of her. As I think about the build I still can't believe how much torque we got.

[Mike]

What we call a "happy motor".
Mike

[475wildey]

Mike - 2006-10-10 12:50 PM

The 264's have slightly more intake duration vs. the 260's but much later intake closing, reducing cylinder pressure unless mechanical compression is increased to compensate (easier starting though). Would not be a bad choice for the 113 with 10.7 compression. Gear drive cam of choice would be the T-man performance 650. Definitley do an adjustable ignition, you'll amazed at how much more performance can be gained with proper ignition tuning (just tuned a TC Branch setup and the igntion made all the difference).
Thanks, Mike

Mike
Would you recomend installing the 650's straight up or advanced... I have .03 cometec head gaskets and have been told this should give around 10.6 to 1

[Mike]

Yes, we like them as designed, straight up. With you compression, advancing the timing may lead to detonation.
Mike

[sexyharleyguy1]

Hey Mike I am back. I now have 14,000 miles on the all harley 113 build. It appears my starting issues were mostly carb related. It was actually a ting too rich not lean. 97% of my issued cleared up with a one size smaller needle. I have noticed as engine oil becomes older the starting correspondingly becomes harder but not significantly. I have put amsoil synthetic in all 3 sections of my drive train. I immediately noticed improved starting due to increase motor speed during cranking. I still get horrible 33mpg but damn this is too much fun . I have also noticed also reduced valve train noise with the synthetic oil. It appears to be worth of nickel of the 10.00 a quart it costs. I can actually if all things are right pull the front whell off the ground without slipping clutch ect between 1 and 2nd gear. Not bad for 800 lbs of bike and 250 lbs of idiot. My kudos to you for all the help you've been .

[Mike]

Thanks for the update, keep the shiney side up!
Mike