Oh See'er of great DYNO

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

HI Mike,
I too want to express the AWESOME information on this site. It's helped me volumes.

I just had my bike DYNO'ed at NWHD over here in Lacey, Wa. and here are the numbers and view I get of the DYNO Chart.

My First question to you, with the components I've put into the motor should I be getting better numbers?

Second question is: Can you see if I need something additional to remove the flat part of the DYNO from 5K-6.3K? My belief is that I have more engine, but it maybe not getting enough AIR to allow it to continue. OR it could be just the SE Throttle Body isn't allowing enough volume thru it?

Here is what I've done to the stock TC88
1.) SE HTCC Heads(D Style for better torque)
2.) SE HTCC Pistons(10.5:1)
3.) SE HTCC manifold - Went this way to try to offset the Low RPM TQ loss from the Rinehart True Duals
4.) SE Big Bore 95" Cylinders
5.) Perfect Fit Pushrods
6.) S&S 570G
7.) S&S 4 Gear Kit (Bearings included)
8.) SE High Pro Clutch
9.) SE Race Tuner
10.) Rinehart True Duals
11.) Kuryakn Hyper Charger PRO (new design)

Here are the numbers:
Original
STOCK TC88:
Max TQ = 70
Max HP = 59

Upgraded to TC95" and all other goodies previously listed:
Prior to DYNO:
MAX TQ = 86.6
MAX HP = 73.4

After DYNO at Lacey:
MAX TQ = 99.2
MAX HP = 83.6

After about 5K she flattens out or drops some and then, of course, drops off at 6.3K.

Let me know what you think... I value HIGHLY your opinion.

SR

[Mike]

Thank you for the kind words. As fourth gear SAE numbers, these may not be to far off. Inevitably, reviewing dyno charts means critizing either the combo or parts if it. It is not my entent to put down any parts, it is just that some pieces may work great in some environments but not so good in others. We know that the HTCC heads were designed to emphasize torque and not neccessarily HP. We know also that the Kuryakin Pro still does not provide enough air to support 100+ HP. These both may explain the 5-6k flatness. Air flow restrictions show on dyno charts as flattening of the torque curve as the HP line goes straight across or maintains the same number as RPM's rise. Unfortunately, the Rhineharts do not accentuate torque in the 3-4k area, where the heads have the most potential (which you have noted). The cams should be a very good match as is the rest of the combo. I believe Rhinehart now offers a "quite" core for your pipes and this may help the 3-4 area (more restrictive). Go with the Screaming Eagle air cleaner but also use the Zippers upgrade element (similar to what is used with the SE 51 CV). This will eliminate any filter concerns, but the heads may still sign off from 5k on. The real key to your combo is concentrating on torque. If this can be improved your smile will get very large indeed! You should see 105-110 peak torque when tuned with 90-95HP typical for these heads (STD 5th gear).
Thanks, Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-04 9:37 PM

Thank you for the kind words. As fourth gear SAE numbers, these may not be to far off. Inevitably, reviewing dyno charts means critizing either the combo or parts if it. It is not my entent to put down any parts, it is just that some pieces may work great in some environments but not so good in others. We know that the HTCC heads were designed to emphasize torque and not neccessarily HP. We know also that the Kuryakin Pro still does not provide enough air to support 100+ HP. These both may explain the 5-6k flatness. Air flow restrictions show on dyno charts as flattening of the torque curve as the HP line goes straight across or maintains the same number as RPM's rise. Unfortunately, the Rhineharts do not accentuate torque in the 3-4k area, where the heads have the most potential (which you have noted). The cams should be a very good match as is the rest of the combo. I believe Rhinehart now offers a "quite" core for your pipes and this may help the 3-4 area (more restrictive). Go with the Screaming Eagle air cleaner but also use the Zippers upgrade element (similar to what is used with the SE 51 CV). This will eliminate any filter concerns, but the heads may still sign off from 5k on. The real key to your combo is concentrating on torque. If this can be improved your smile will get very large indeed! You should see 105-110 peak torque when tuned with 90-95HP typical for these heads (STD 5th gear).
Thanks, Mike

That matches EXACTLY with what I see on the DYNO paperwork. After 4.5K she flattens out and drops on TQ and the HP still goes higher until about 5.5K and then flattens and drops until, of course, everything drops off at 6.3K. A performance shop (Full Throttle Dyno) is telling me I should go with Doherty air packs and a Doherty Breather in the Head to help with the blow-by under load.

What do you think? I know many senior level techs I've talked too tell me to stay with SE as much as possible since HD has already done all the research and design that into all SE parts specifically for the motors we all have. Which to me, would make better sense.

Is Doherty that good? and should I consider doing that with the $$$ I already have in it. I want the motor to reach it's full potential and I'm not saying I'm going to hammer the crap out of the motor.. I don't ride that way.. but I want all it can give me when I twist the throttle. I know.. I should have gone 2-into-1 on the exhaust, but I couldn't bring myself to do it looking at the UC. It just wouldn't look right to me.

Thanks for answering all my previous questions Mike. I know about motors.. but at this level I'm getting beyond my abilities to make clear/correct decisions.

-SR

[Mike]

We need to concentrate on what problem we are trying to solve. Are you having carryover problems (I.E., excessive oil in the air cleaner)? The Doherty valves can be vented in such a way to route that oil to a hose and then to the ground. They will not stop the problem, just move it to a less noticable place. This is a venting problem not an air flow/processing problem. Your dyno numbers are a function of your motors abillity to process (move) air. The Doherty valves will not help with this. Your H-D techs are corect in that Harley has the capability for testing that Independant shops cannot approach (I was an independant for 13 years), and they do test!!!! Having said that, we at Latus will and do use aftermarket parts when the application warrants and an H-D/SE part wil not fill the need. We have tested a number of breathers, for effect on HP (including none at all, to plugging off) and have yet to see substantial gains on near stock motors just oiling issues.
Thanks, Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-06 6:07 AM

We need to concentrate on what problem we are trying to solve. Are you having carryover problems (I.E., excessive oil in the air cleaner)? The Doherty valves can be vented in such a way to route that oil to a hose and then to the ground. They will not stop the problem, just move it to a less noticable place. This is a venting problem not an air flow/processing problem. Your dyno numbers are a function of your motors abillity to process (move) air. The Doherty valves will not help with this. Your H-D techs are corect in that Harley has the capability for testing that Independant shops cannot approach (I was an independant for 13 years), and they do test!!!! Having said that, we at Latus will and do use aftermarket parts when the application warrants and an H-D/SE part wil not fill the need. We have tested a number of breathers, for effect on HP (including none at all, to plugging off) and have yet to see substantial gains on near stock motors just oiling issues.
Thanks, Mike

Thank you Mike. Much appreciated. So, if I read your original thread correctly. I should do 3 things.

1.) Go with Zipper or SE Air Cleaner ($200)
2.) Add quiet core baffles to the True Duals ($110)
3.) Bring my UC into Latus for your handy work (???)

Results should be 105+ TQ and 95 HP

Can you give me a rough idea of the cost for you to tune this once I change/add these parts? or would/could you(or another tech) do all the work needed there?

Since I don't live in Oregon.. I'm hoping all this could be done in 1 day.

Thanks
-Rick

[Mike]

Latus or another good tuner. They are out there, just some homework is required to find them. We charge a flat fee of $250.00 (this will soon increase to reflect changes in our shop rate, price not yet set). We give you a copy on CD when you leave. When properly scheduled, we can do in one day. I've heard others from $75.00 to $350.00 depending on what part of the country the shop is in.
Thanks, Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-06 9:27 PM

Latus or another good tuner. They are out there, just some homework is required to find them. We charge a flat fee of $250.00 (this will soon increase to reflect changes in our shop rate, price not yet set). We give you a copy on CD when you leave. When properly scheduled, we can do in one day. I've heard others from $75.00 to $350.00 depending on what part of the country the shop is in.
Thanks, Mike

Sounds Good Mike. Unfortunately I can't seem to get a line on a local shop with the same SERT experience you have. If I had gone PCIII, I could locate tuners anywhere, in fact they were coming out of the woodwork to get me to change over to Power Commander.

Anyway.. I've located the QUIET BAFFLES you suggested. Can you point me in a direction of the proper Air Cleaner/Setup. Would you recommend a performance Throttle Body too? I assume 48MM. Who do you like? Wild Thing looks interesting. But I don't know enough about EFI Throttle Bodies to understand the nuances.

Thanks in advance.

BTW - Once we get this info hammered out... I'd like to get everything ordered (for anything i can't order online) thru Latus and then commit to scheduling installation and final tune with your expertise included of course.
It'll probably be a 3 hour ride for me. I'd love to do it on a Sat... (since I work M-F) but I bet you're racing on most Saturdays? If M-F works better for you.. I'll just take a day off and come down there.

Let me know and thanks again.

-Rick

[Mike]

Stay with the Race Tuner. We do both the SERT and PC but the SERT still gives us the best numbers and tunability plus data monitor (which we always have running when tuning). A bigger throttle body may not be needed. The 05E stock Delphi unit will support 108-110HP and the 06 version will get you to 115-117. If your motor has the potential to go higher then a larger unit would allow it to do so. The AC setup is the SE kit upgraded with the Zippers element, $139.95 (SE) plus $65.00 (Zippers). The parts ordering is no problem and we have an Internet department just for that. Saturdays should not be problem if scheduled around our racing. More or less we race every other weekend until November with a couple of month long breaks. We do have three other techs who arre very good with SERT and so may allow more felxibility. Last, we have just gone back to 7 days/week and will have a SERT tech available on Sun/Mon.
Thanks, Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-09 7:27 PM

Stay with the Race Tuner. We do both the SERT and PC but the SERT still gives us the best numbers and tunability plus data monitor (which we always have running when tuning). A bigger throttle body may not be needed. The 05E stock Delphi unit will support 108-110HP and the 06 version will get you to 115-117. If your motor has the potential to go higher then a larger unit would allow it to do so. The AC setup is the SE kit upgraded with the Zippers element, $139.95 (SE) plus $65.00 (Zippers). The parts ordering is no problem and we have an Internet department just for that. Saturdays should not be problem if scheduled around our racing. More or less we race every other weekend until November with a couple of month long breaks. We do have three other techs who arre very good with SERT and so may allow more felxibility. Last, we have just gone back to 7 days/week and will have a SERT tech available on Sun/Mon.
Thanks, Mike

Okay Mike, I'm ready to do this. I can order the Rinehart TD "quiet" baffles thru J&P. But obviously the SE Air Cleaner and filter setup I want to go thru you guys and the DYNO TUNE of course. Do you do a individual Cylinder tune, or is that extra? or even necessary?


Once I get the part in, I'll want to check in with someone there to confirm the Air Cleaner and Elements are available and then make an appointment. I might be able to get to you during the week. What is your best available day usually?
Should we look at having a larger Throttle Body available in case it's needed? and can you do that install and still get the tune in during the Day.

I'm also going to attach the dyno I got from NWHD in Lacey so you can see what it's doing. I had to shrink it down a lot because the website won't take over 100kb in an upload.

Let me know your thoughts please.. I trust your experience and judgement on this 100%.

-Rick

[Mike]

With SERT we always map each cylinder independantly (really two maps). Power Cmdr. USB versions when requested. You'll have to call one of our service writers for what the schedule looks like. If I get involved in scheduling then the world falls apart. I'm over 40 so maybe you'll want to go with 80%!!
Whenever we see a torque curve going down so straight that you can lay a ruler on the line, then this is a classic sign of an air restriction in the motor. Most commonly this is an exhaust problem. I do not see a fuel curve but the line looks pretty smooth so the fuel must not be not too far off.
I do not believe a larger throttle body will get you much of a gain vs. cost. Having said that, I have seen larger carbs make a little more power than stock even though the stock should have been large enough. This may be an air gathering, plenum or funnelling affect as the motor pulses, that is not always seen on a flow bench. Other than the added cost, on EFI bikes there is really no down side to a larger throttlebody (within reason, too large will slow down port velocities reducing cylinder fill at low rpm's. Not as bad as carbs because we compensate somewhat with better fuel delivery). A throttle body change and full tune might be a tight fit for one day. Should be possible so long as no hicups appear.
Thanks, Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-17 8:10 PM

With SERT we always map each cylinder independantly (really two maps). Power Cmdr. USB versions when requested. You'll have to call one of our service writers for what the schedule looks like. If I get involved in scheduling then the world falls apart. I'm over 40 so maybe you'll want to go with 80%!!
Whenever we see a torque curve going down so straight that you can lay a ruler on the line, then this is a classic sign of an air restriction in the motor. Most commonly this is an exhaust problem. I do not see a fuel curve but the line looks pretty smooth so the fuel must not be not too far off.
I do not believe a larger throttle body will get you much of a gain vs. cost. Having said that, I have seen larger carbs make a little more power than stock even though the stock should have been large enough. This may be an air gathering, plenum or funnelling affect as the motor pulses, that is not always seen on a flow bench. Other than the added cost, on EFI bikes there is really no down side to a larger throttlebody (within reason, too large will slow down port velocities reducing cylinder fill at low rpm's. Not as bad as carbs because we compensate somewhat with better fuel delivery). A throttle body change and full tune might be a tight fit for one day. Should be possible so long as no hicups appear.
Thanks, Mike

Perfect Mike.. I thought you'd see the problem in the DYNO. Yeah.. I thought it a little odd that fuel flow was not on the graph... I thought that was intregal part of the tune itself. From monitoring my MPG.. I don't think I have a "flow" problem on fuel.. especially when I get on it a few times on a tank.. the fuel gauge goes down fast. In fact, if anything I think maybe it is too rich.. but I know you don't want to lean it out too much as the fual also helps with cooling on the cylinders.

LOL.. I'm with you on the whole over 40 thing.. <me too>.

Okay.. so I've placed the order for the Rinehart "quiet" baffles to help with back pressure and when it comes in I will contact one of your Service Writers and schedule my 2003 Ultra. I assume I ask them about the Air Cleaner and Zipper Element at that time? Or can you give someone a heads up on that? Either way it doesn't matter so long as the part is there.

RE:Throttle Body
I'm with you.. I too, don't believe I need a new one. It's only a 95" and as such can only draw so much volume, correct? IF the stock TB is rated for 100+.. then I should be fine. It's much more likely, as you say, that I have an air or exhaust issue combination causing a restriction and/or performance limits.

One last question and then I'll leave you alone (bet you'll be happy with that). Can I ask for you specifically to do the DYNO tune? It's not that I don't trust anyone else.. it's that I think you have the best clue on what my motor needs and I want to get the best TQ/HP possible without hurting the motor for a nice long ride of a few thousands miles. Make sense?

Again Mike.. thank you so much for the assistance. You have NO idea on some of the clueless answers I've gotten up here in Washington. At one point, it was suggested I tear the motor down and change the CAM and gearing and possibly the HTCC Heads. Needless to say I never went back to that HD dealer (or will again).

Your a credit to the Motorcycle Industry and most especially to Harley-Davidson!

BTW - Latus better be paying you well.. you deserve every DOLLAR <wink>

-Rick

[Mike]

We have the Zippers upgrade and SE kit in stock, no problem. You can ask for me, but you may have to wait longer to get scheduled. Thanks again for the compliments! George (Latus) takes very good care of me and it's a privelage to work here!!
Mike

[SiCkEL_RiDeR]

Mike - 2006-05-18 7:20 PM

We have the Zippers upgrade and SE kit in stock, no problem. You can ask for me, but you may have to wait longer to get scheduled. Thanks again for the compliments! George (Latus) takes very good care of me and it's a privelage to work here!!
Mike

The Quiet Baffles came in(new windshield too).. So I'm ready to schedule. I've got a call into your service dept. for a date to bring it in.

Quick question: Should I wait until after you DYNO the bike and get a full service(Oil, Filter, etc..) done? It isn't past due on service yet.. but it would be close once I ride down there. Since I assume you'll be abusing the engine a little, should I wait until after you're done and get a full service?

Thanks again Mike..
-Rick

[Mike]

I prefer to dyno the bikes as recieved and then do the service so that it is fresh to the customer. Unless we are doing some sort of test that requires fresh oils. Some dyno operators prefer to do it the other way around (fresh on the dyno), so it's somwhat a personal choice. It can also be the customers choice to what makes them most comfortable.
I hate to imply that we "abuse" the motors (I note your use of the words "a little") and there are arguments that say the dyno is less abusive than trying to do similar things on the street. Looking forward to seeing how it all works out!
Thanks, Mike